The Nightmare Box and Other Stories Book Club

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Hi, everyone. This is Christina
and Carmen and this is another episode of

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A Spooky Tells, the podcast for
all things a spooky, sometimes to crime.

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Sometimes we're a book club and that's
what we're doing today. There's no

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MJ today, unfortunately, but we
do have an awesome guest with us,

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a returning guest. I should add, we have Cynthia Gomez. She is

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a writer, a researcher, and
she's actually she was with us to talk

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about the Shivering World sometime last year. Was that last year or longer?

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Two years ago? I don't remember
anymore. Well, it came out in

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November twenty twenty two, so sometime
around then. Yeah, so over twenty

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four two. Wow. Yeah,
okay, and you're back with a new

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book. I'm so glad to be
back. I'm very excited. I got

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an email one day that was like
Oakland Horror is back, and I was

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like, oh, I'm intrigued,
and anyone says Oakland, I'm there,

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And that's actually what happened the first
time. What I think it was on

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was it Twitter? Yeah, that's
why you said I don't remember how we

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found each other? Is that what
I said? Listened to the episode today.

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So yeah, yeah, I think
Cynthia had you made a tweet about

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something about like and I in Oakland
and I was like, tell me more

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please, something like that. Yeah, and then I, you know,

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I remembered it and I squirreled that
away. So then later when I had

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the book, I reached out to
you to say, you know, like,

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now it's a real thing and it's
it's a book and it's out and

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I would love to talk about it. And I remember, that's right.

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I remember that conversation that we had
about the Shivering World, and it's it's

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in a series called Split Scream,
and there are two novelettes, like long

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short stories, and the other is
by a writer named m LAPAs Ta Silva,

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and it's called What Ate the Angels
And it's like very different in tone,

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but very similar in terms of being
about like working class, clear people

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just trying to get by and so
so yeah, and that's a lot of

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what the new collection is about.
The Nightmare Box, Yes, yeah,

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and let's yeah talk about the new
book a little bit. So the Nightmare

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Box and other stories. There's quite
a bit of different stories in this collection

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and they're all amazing. Thank you, Thank you. It's twelve stories and

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they're all set in or connected to
Oakland, and they all center for almost

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all of them, center ordinate people, working class, square Latino people who

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are dealing in one way or another
with supernatural powers. Sometimes they have supernatural

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powers and they're wielding them. Sometimes
the powers are being used against them.

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Sometimes it's like a contest for both. And then there are a few that

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are a little different. There are
a few. There are two that are

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inside the heads of white men who
get what's coming to them in one way

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or another. Yes, so yeah, that's a short introduction to the story.

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It's all about magic, and it's
got your standard horror stuff of like

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zombie like creatures and there's a witch
and there's a ghost and there's a vampire

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and you know, all those things. But then it uh and I love

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Ira leven. So there's one story
that's basically like a straight up homage to

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Ira eleven. But then you know, it's my own particular spin on it.

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Yes, And each each story it's
like I'll touching on such important topics

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that we always always try to refer
to back to because like horror and not

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even just like horror movies and horror
stories and books. But even like the

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myths and legends that we hear,
they're all rooted in the same thing,

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especially in places like Latin America,
oppression, racism. Like so you,

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yeah, you do such an amazing
job of always connecting a story because that's

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I mean, it affects us,
it does. Thank you. I really

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with the stories. What I wanted
to do with a lot of them was

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tackle this is the stuff. These
are the things that we have to live

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with that I have a lot of
anger about, right Like I have to

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walk out every day and deal with
people who are and see people being brutalized

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by the cops, or you know, I have friends who have hard times

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with their landlord or coworkers who have
to deal with sexual harassment and all these

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are things that I have to just
watch or experience or both and I feel

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really powerless about. And I still
don't have any more power in the real

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world than I did when I started
writing these stories. But at least in

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the world of my imagination. I
can change change the equation and change the

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story. And in some cases I
take actual real life stories and write,

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here's what I wish would have happened, and those are. They sometimes get

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very dark, but they're also ultimately
really satisfying. That reminds me because Carmen

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and I were earlier talking and we're
like one of our both our favorite stories.

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Let me scroll to the title because
oh I have it. Hold on,

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will they disappear? That one?
Right? What about the two adoptive

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mothers? Yes, okay, yeah, that that one. You know?

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Reading it, I think Carla and
I both immediately recognized what the real story

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that you uh, I guess,
I don't know, took inspiration from based

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it on. Yeah, the actual
case that happened is the Heart Family,

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and it was such a I mean, obviously it was like twenty twenty,

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you know, everything was there was
like so so many protests and then you

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know these two. For those that
don't know, the story is these two

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white women adopted five the five siblings, was it? I forget if it

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was five, it was six.
I think it might have been six one

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of those two. Yeah, they
actually at one point lived like an hour,

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not sorry, not even an hour, like half an hour from here

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where I'm at. So they were
living. They moved around a bunch of

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different places, and then they basically
used it's in the little note at the

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end of the story that I wrote. But they basically used their whiteness to

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shield them from ever having any consequences, even though their children tried to tell

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social workers what was happening. And
so they were living in Washington, and

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I don't remember where, but it
sounds like I was really close to you.

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I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I
kind of recall they were like,

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not was Shoogle, but it was. It was not far from here at

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all. Yeah, so like some
small town in Washington, and they finally,

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it's not clear why, but it
seems like they finally thought that they

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might face some consequences. And the
real story, you know, I'm about

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to tell you is absolutely awful.
They murdered their children and murdered suicide.

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Yes, right near Mendocino, which
is not just a couple hours north of

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where I live in Oakland to Mendocino
County, and they just drove off the

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cliff and it wasn't even clear.
I remember reading the news reports about this

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terrible tragedy, and then later it
started to emerge not only was it not

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an accident, but that there was
actually something even worse. If that's possible,

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then what had already happened. So
you know, I remember reading about

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that and just kind of chewing it
over and chewing it over. And this

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was a Twitter conversation that I was
having at one point when I had already

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started to work on a couple of
stories, and I remember making some comment

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to the effect of, you know, wouldn't it be nice to write a

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different version of that? And I
thought, well, okay, I'm a

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writer. So that's when I started
working on that, and it was It's

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the darkest thing I've ever written because
of the subject matter is so dark,

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and even like in your story,
the things that those children went through,

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some of them are like things that
the real children went through, and it's

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just it's horrible. And the I
think I forgot. I think it was

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a podcast called What Did You Do? They had an episode on the case,

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but yeah, I just looked it
up. They lived in Woodland,

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Washington, right before they fled Washington
to go to California, where then they

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went on to murder the children.
So yeah, Woodland is forty minutes for

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me most but they escaped from state
to state every time there was something that

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was like about to happen in those
group of children. That wasn't even the

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first like red Flag, they had
adopted another like teen girl and then just

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returned her, like you can't just
return kids like this, and this was

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after like abusing her. And because
there was no like connecting, there was

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no way for like all these different
states to know the history of these women.

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But also there was no reason for
them to doubt the women because oh,

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look, these are two queer white
women who just want to change the

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world. There was no like,
on top of no reason for quote unquote,

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no reason for them to look into
the history of the women. Like

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you said, they use their whiteness
to shield the horrible things they were doing,

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and that's why they got away with
it for so long they did.

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And it's really I watched this episode. I had already started working on the

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story, but I watched this episode
or this documentary on HBO called Broken Hearts

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or something like that, and it
didn't pull any punches on just why these

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women did what they did. And
the idea that really what they needed was

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this narrative where they were the saviors. So then I really tapped into that

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and I will not spoil what happens
about the story. What happened to the

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story for readers. But it's funny
because right now when I'm talking to you,

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I'm staring at my bookshelf and there's
a copy of Carrie, like right

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on top. And so one of
the children that they take in turns out

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to have supernatural powers. It's not
exactly like Carrie, but you know,

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you kind of get the idea,
and she can make things disappear and then

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she can make things reappear. And
so I thought, well, let me

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put that into a situation where you
have these moms who have been able to

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just go unchecked and unchecked no matter
what they do, and then let's see

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what happens when they encounter a child
who actually has powers, and what happens

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with those powers. I'm gonna let
the readers figure out because I don't want

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to spoil it. But you know, it was really dark while I was

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writing it, but I got to
say, it's really satisfying, and again,

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like, that's not how it happened
in real life, but I can,

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you know. And one one funny
little tidbit too. If you are

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like me and you're a gen X
baby and you I don't know if either

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of you grew up reading the Sweet
Valley High series a little bit, a

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little bit from it, but I
never read a bunch Yeah yeah, same

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so because but Carmon, you're familiar
with like Jessica and Elizabeth. Yeah yeah,

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Jessica Elizabeth Wakefield. So that's exactly
where I got the name of both

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those two women. It was like
a little in joke to Jessica and Elizabeth

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from Sweet Valley High. I'm gonna
need to look into this so then I

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can be in on the joke too. There's a I don't think it's happening

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anymore that but there was a blog
that I read for years in like the

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mid two thousands called the Dairy Burger
da I r I because that's like the

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hangout that all the kids hang out
in the books. And so this was

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a woman who, like me,
grew up reading them and then goes back

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to analyze all of the absolutely horrible
like this, the sexism, the fat

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phobia. Okay, I need to
look into this because I love ruining things

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for my childhood that you really do. What else do you do you find

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that you love to ruin from your
childhood? Like I don't remember off the

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top of my head now, But
I mean, oh, I'll tell you

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one that I loved. Harry Potter
was one that I actually was like,

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oh my god, these names are
so racist. What is cho Chanin?

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Like? What wasn't there actually one
black character it's called Kingsley shackle Bolt,

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Yes, the black wizard, that
was his name? What kind of shit

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is that? The good thing?
Absolutely insane, the goblins, it's all

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of so much, all of it, all of it, and looking back

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at it, I'm like, oh
my god, this is actually horrible.

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Yeah. Yeah, Well, I'm
glad that you found that guarnament because I

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never read them. I watched the
movies. But it's it's like, it's

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it is so much fun to destroy
our childhoods. I grew up with John

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Hughes, and like, it's been
really fun to both so both love what

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was good about John Hughes and also
to recognize, Oh my god, did

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you all see that scene in sixteen
Candles where they joke about I mean,

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I'm I'm assuming everyone knows that knows
what the joke I'm talking about, but

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you know where the two characters are
just happily joking about what we know is

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sexual assault because it's a girl in
yunk and she can't consent and that's treated

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as like, oh haha, it
is not that kid funny mm hmmmm.

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And what's the other one, the
romance movie with Ryan Gossling and what's her

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name Rachel mc adams The Notebook,
Yeah, where he's like he basically wears

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her down by saying, well,
he wears her down, and then he

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threatens to uh kill himself if he
doesn't if she doesn't agree to go on

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a day with him. Yes,
and that's abuse, Yes, but it

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was like, oh my god,
some romantic but you were like younger watching

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it. Twilight a mess? Twilight. Yeah, I could talk about Twilight

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all day. I'm not gonna but
but there's so much the actually read them

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all. No, but speaking of
vampires, Okay, there we go,

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talk about vampires. There we go, we're coming back vampires. I mean,

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you already mentioned there's vampires in your
book the first story, but I'm

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not gonna like spoil more than that, but vampires. I love me vampire

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stories. So this was a fun
one. The ending, I was like,

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wow, this is great. I
just I think a lot of the

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stories were like what's the word,
like, oh sweet, revenge or like,

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yeah, it was one of my
favorite things. Like I love when

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people actually get their come up ins. You know, I do too,

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I do too. And in all
the cases, like it's not a spoiler

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for any of the stories to say
that nobody what those characters when they do

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get revenge, you know, or
when someone gets their come upance, nobody

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gets what wasn't coming to them.
They only got back what they put out

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into the world. Like the motto
of a lot of my characters would be,

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like it's even tattooed on one of
my characters chests, like Roberto from

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the Thorne story. He says,
don't start no shit, won't be no

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shit. They don't get it that
wasn't coming to them. So but yeah,

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the vampire story that has a funny
I like to tell the backstory of

205
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the vampire tale. That's the one
that's called Lips like Sugar, And it's

206
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the first one because I work for
a labor union and one of my tasks

207
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that I had to do about two
or three years ago, now that I

208
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was really not good at, was
making a database and I had to enter

209
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a whole bunch of data into the
database. And then there was a formula

210
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that we used to calculate seniority,
like how many years and days you've worked

211
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there? Like you know, okay, it's your start date and here's your

212
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end date. Okay, Well then
therefore you you've been at that job seven

213
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years. And I made some kind
of mistake and I accidentally gave a whole

214
00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:31.039
bunch of people like instead of you
know, seven years of seniority or whatever

215
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it was, I gave them hundreds
of years of seniority somehow. And so

216
00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:39.679
I joked that, well, I
obviously I made a mistake somewhere when I

217
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calculated that or I put in the
formula because as far as I know,

218
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our union doesn't represent any vampires.
And nobody laughed at the joke. Oh

219
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I would have been cracking out.
It was a funny joke. So but

220
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it got me thinking, like I
was walking around with my dog as I

221
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like to do and thinking about story
thoughts, and so I was like,

222
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well, what would a vampire union
agitate for? Right, like if they

223
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had vampire union committee meetings, what
would the vampires agitate for? And that

224
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didn't stick around. But what did
stick around was like, because like you,

225
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I love you know you were saying, Christina, you love a vampire

226
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story. I do too, and
so often they're rich, right, Like

227
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vampires are yich old and rich,
old and rich and almost all white,

228
00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:23.200
and like what is it with if
a vampire is you know, like the

229
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obsession with vampires as former members of
the Confederacy. But so I just thought

230
00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:32.600
it'd be really fun to play with, Well, what if you were just

231
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a working class person who became a
vampire and you didn't have all this money

232
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and you still had to just survive. And so that was part of the

233
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story. And then I had this
idea that I've been wanting to play with

234
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for a while of supernatural power.
Like I had this story plan that I

235
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couldn't turn into anything about women who
have supernatural power and the freedom that they

236
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were able to have, but I
couldn't figure out why they have it.

237
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And so I put those two things
together. Oh, well, that's that's

238
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who has the supernatural power, is
the vampire, and she's just an ordinary

239
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person. And what is it like
to like walk into a bar and it's

240
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full of strange drunk men and she
knows they can't hurt her, right,

241
00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:18.799
because like no one knows what that's
like right, No, it's not just

242
00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.240
I mean, it's definitely not true
for women, but it's also not true

243
00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:26.279
for almost anybody who's like gender and
unconforming in any kind of way, right

244
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:30.200
you're queer, Yeah, you know, so, like just that thought was

245
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:34.440
really delicious. It was, well, what is the start calling again?

246
00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:40.240
Something like sugar like sugar sugar,
Yes, and it's it's from an Echo

247
00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:41.920
and the Bunnymn song. I don't
know who they are. Echo the Bunnyman

248
00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:48.240
is like kind of if you like
The Cure or Joy Division, like a

249
00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:52.720
lot of yeah, same same concept, like same general vibe, right,

250
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:57.400
like a lot of like heavy synth
and like you know, they wear a

251
00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:02.720
lot of black makeup, a black
lott I make up, but you know,

252
00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:06.720
that sort of shoegaze synthpop. So
if you like The Cure, you

253
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:10.079
probably would like Joy Division two and
go and the Bunnyman. But yeah,

254
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.119
it's just kind of it's his boppy
song. It's called lips like Sugar,

255
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:21.440
So okay, I'll have to look
it up. Also, reading through the

256
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:26.920
book, it was like such an
emotional roller coaster. Roller coaster. Yeah,

257
00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:27.880
it was like one minute, I'm
like, oh my god, I'm

258
00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:36.599
so sad and where was the high? This is just i feel like I'm

259
00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:40.279
fishing for compliments, but I've got
to know, like where was the highest

260
00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:45.359
roller coaster? I think? Okay, so the for me, the let

261
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me look at the name because I
never remember names, so it was someone

262
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else is to destroy. Oh yeah, getting to the end of that,

263
00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.039
well, first when I started to
realize what actually was going down with the

264
00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:03.640
children and of her and just like
you know, her whole life and will

265
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led her to do that, you
like, I understand it, of course,

266
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But then at the same time,
I'm like, oh my god,

267
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like to have to have like to
know what she's doing and to know why

268
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she's doing it. And I know
readers you don't even know until you read

269
00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:22.119
book the story and you have to
oh my god, that and I have

270
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two little boys, and oh that
that one, but not only her,

271
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everyone's story in the family, like
the cousin and the struggles she was going

272
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through. And then like, you
know, having been the one that this

273
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the mom of the boys trusted her
to know this is what I've done.

274
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Yeah, that I think that one
emotionally, but I mean that wasn't the

275
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only one, but I think that
was the biggest one. I even message

276
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Car and I'm like, I this
one messed me up. Yeah, it

277
00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:56.759
was. It was heartbreaking to know
what she felt like she had to do,

278
00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:00.039
you know, and and you kind
of felt like the main character of

279
00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:04.880
the story, the cousin where she's
like, well, I like, you

280
00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:10.160
can't feel like she did right or
wrong, like you just understand like why

281
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:14.960
she did it. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that's the most we

282
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.799
can do, is understand why.
Because I will not spoil what the what

283
00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:22.680
it is that the mom did right, because we're all going to figure it

284
00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.920
out. I can say what inspired
me. But frankly, if you've read

285
00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.079
either of these books, then it's
a little bit of a spoiler for the

286
00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:33.039
story. So I put them in
the show notes or something, let us

287
00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.759
know offline. Okay, yeah,
then I could read it later. Yeah,

288
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:41.079
because it's basically heavily, heavily inspired
by two books. One is a

289
00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:45.559
kid's book and what is definitely not
a kid's book that I read when I

290
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.960
was growing up. Oh yes,
okay, let us know. I'll find

291
00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:52.119
okay, I need to know,
Okay, but no that and even I

292
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:53.440
finished and I was like, what
happened? And I went back and I'm

293
00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:59.440
like, oh no, this is
what happened. Oh man, yeah,

294
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.079
that one, huh. That one
I'm still recovering. I would say,

295
00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:11.119
I'm sorry, but I don't know
if that's but yeah, it's it's a

296
00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.920
whole it's a whole lot. And
what's interesting is that was actually the first

297
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:18.119
of all the stories in here.
There's the one that I published earliest,

298
00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:22.480
and it's the one that I was
like the most iffy about including, because

299
00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:26.480
you know, to to write is
to grow, and I remember looking at

300
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:29.799
it and going, Okay, there's
some things that I would do differently,

301
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.720
Like there's a little bit of a
there's some stereotypes that I feel like the

302
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:38.200
character of Imani, she's there for
Latina character falls into that. I think

303
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.839
I would probably I see, I
would probably polish up now and I would

304
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:47.559
probably take on a little bit differently
for her. You know, I wasn't

305
00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:48.799
going to re edit it because I
feel like, that's that's not what we

306
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.440
do, right, Like, that's
that's what I wrote then, five years

307
00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.920
ago, and it's the kind of
ritter I was then. But I know

308
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:57.920
you're not supposed to read your reviews
online, but I do, and what

309
00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:03.160
I find interesting is how many people
like the combination of getting drawn to the

310
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:08.640
will they disappear and the saone else
is to destroy it. Like very often

311
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.079
people will say that those are the
two that jumped out at them just just

312
00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:18.480
the way that both of you have
because they are the they're easily the darkest

313
00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:22.200
and they kind of touch on similar
themes. Is like the fuller opposite of

314
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:29.680
caretakers caring for kids, right,
yeah, because like at the end of

315
00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:32.880
the day, what would you not
do or what would you do? I

316
00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:36.680
mean thought a thought popped in my
head that I'm wondering if this is the

317
00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:38.319
book that you read. But I'll
just wait till you tell us to see

318
00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:41.759
if I'm in the chat, so
we don't spoil it for the listeners.

319
00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:45.960
Yes, all that to just say, everyone has to read this. It's

320
00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.880
so good. It's so good,
like we were saying, an emotional roller

321
00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:53.319
coaster, but also at the same
time like cathartic, but at the same

322
00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:57.400
time, I mean some stories were
also fun, Like there's just there's like

323
00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:00.720
everything not to I mean, we're
gonna it's not that you're fishing for a

324
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:03.960
couple ofments. We're just we're gonna
give them you know they're going to throw

325
00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:07.359
them out there, because so it
was It's like, seriously, such a

326
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:10.559
good collection of stories. There's another
one I do want to talk about,

327
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:12.160
though, the Red Break. Oh
my god, that was my Oh that

328
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:15.559
was my other other Yeah, yeah, that was our other favorite one.

329
00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.799
A lot of the stories here are
they come from anger. They come from

330
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.559
anger and frustration. We could sense
it. I think I could. Yeah,

331
00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:26.559
I could feel it, and you
know, I didn't want to just

332
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.839
be anger. I wanted to do
something with it. And so I remember,

333
00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:33.640
I guess this is, you know, years ago now, but when

334
00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:38.000
the news started coming out about children
being kept in cages, and for one

335
00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:41.599
thing, we already knew that that
shit had been happening. We already knew

336
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.720
just how much horrible stuff had been
done along the border by every president.

337
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:51.559
But it felt like it took a
new, a new sleep into depravity during

338
00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:56.519
the Trump administration. And I remember
just having this image of Kirsten I think

339
00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:59.759
Nielsen, doesn't matter what her last
name is, but the woman who was

340
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:02.440
like head of homodsecurity at the time, you know, who was kind of

341
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:07.720
responsible for the extra leap into depravity. And I remember just I had this

342
00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:11.559
picture if I wanted that wherever she
went, I wanted her to be confronted

343
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:15.880
by ghosts of little children, little
brown children that had been taken from their

344
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.960
parents or that had drowned on the
border. And I wanted her never to

345
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.920
be able to eat a meal in
piece again without confronting those people, without

346
00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:26.359
confronting the people that she had harmed. And you know, obviously I would

347
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:32.079
love it if somehow that could happen
in real life, but right, And

348
00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:38.640
I also started thinking about the fact
that lots of quote unquote good people have

349
00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:42.799
to make horrible decisions, like the
main character in Red Brick, and they

350
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:45.759
still have to people who still consider
themselves good people. Right, So the

351
00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:49.519
narrator or the main character in Red
Brick is you know, he's a family

352
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:52.240
man, and you know he cares
about his children, and he's like the

353
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:56.839
whole time, just to find it. Yes, I had so many thoughts

354
00:24:56.839 --> 00:24:59.880
on Aridian, and I'm like,
but this is what happens when you do

355
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:04.319
humanize and make somebody an enemy,
like you don't see them as like you.

356
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:08.799
You're able to justify any action,
like you take a quote against them,

357
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:11.720
because you don't see them as you
know, someone equal to you,

358
00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:15.359
yeah, and I love that that
was what you picked up on garment because

359
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:19.240
that's it was not very fun to
be in this guy's head. But it

360
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:22.960
was also kind of a fun challenge
to figure out, Okay, how do

361
00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:26.920
I you know, for one thing, how do I write a story about

362
00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:30.240
a racist without writing a racist story. That was a challenge, right,

363
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:34.400
And also like it didn't feel like
like someone because you know, I think

364
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.720
sometimes when people write like racist characters, they make them like curric. I

365
00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:41.640
can't say the word. It's too
obvious, it's too out there where now

366
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.599
it's like a were you gonna say
character, yes, that word, I

367
00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:49.279
can't say yeah. But here it's
you see that every yeah. You see

368
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:56.359
how the everyday white man becomes that
yeah yeah and is and doesn't even see

369
00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:00.759
it as something that's wrong because he
doesn't because it's not not to him.

370
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.160
But then and even the wife is
like, oh, like, your friends

371
00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:07.920
say this and you know, insert
derogatory term towards these children, migrant children.

372
00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:11.279
And then he's like, well,
they say that, but I don't.

373
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:15.039
But you're but he's still in this
field, and he's still he still

374
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:18.680
thinks this at the end, when
he's like completely freaking out, and he

375
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:22.279
you know, thinks he sees what
he sees. He uses these terms too,

376
00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:26.160
and so at the end of the
day, he was that person,

377
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:30.440
but to him he wasn't. And
his coworkers were Mexican at least they had

378
00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:33.839
Latino last names. So you're like, yeah, exactly, I had one

379
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.240
person challenge, well what about making
him Latino? And I, frankly was

380
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.000
just I had already finished the story. I was like, I don't want

381
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:45.279
to go back. You're like,
it's late, it's too much now.

382
00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:48.759
But you know, but he's just
an ordinary guy. He's not the you

383
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:52.119
know, the head of any of
this. And that was fun, like

384
00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:57.880
the and especially like I won't spoil
the scene outside the donut shop, but

385
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:03.119
that was nothing but and you know, the kind of thing that like I

386
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.519
really wish would happen again, Like
it's you know, I put my wishes

387
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:10.359
on the page and it was really
fun to do. That was yeah.

388
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:14.000
That was I mean, like in
my top three because I can't even like

389
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:15.839
I have too many favorites. I'm
god, that's my favorite, that's my

390
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.880
favorite, but this was like really
really one of my favorites just to see

391
00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:22.039
like, oh, I hope someone
is out here really being haunted like this

392
00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:26.119
because the things that you have to
do to be in that line of work,

393
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:30.519
like oh, and we have I
mean we have I don't know if

394
00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:33.599
direct family members, but like people
in the family and you know, the

395
00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:38.119
whole family that yeah, they have
joined and I myself have joined oppressive systems

396
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:41.359
like this, like the US military. I'm not going to say that it

397
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.359
was, that's not what Well,
it's so built in to society. Yeah,

398
00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:51.480
yeah, yeah, we're like every
little bit you're contributing to these oppressive

399
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:53.680
systems, even if you're not the
one out here with the gun pointing out

400
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:59.799
a little brown child, right,
but these systems are all connected and just

401
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.799
you know, to see someone in
that line of work like finally like oh

402
00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:07.119
he's you know, because I mean
the person in the main story is a

403
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:10.160
little more involved, right, but
they think they're not they think they're doing

404
00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:12.160
the right thing. And so it
was it was so fun that one.

405
00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:15.759
It was fun. I'm so glad
it was fun. There's another that is

406
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:22.440
a different angle on the same question
is the title story, The Nightmare Box,

407
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:26.680
because there's a part where the character
who is a witch, she makes

408
00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:32.720
custom nightmares, and she starts to
wonder about who she's really working for because

409
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:36.519
it's set in nineteen seventy, and
she notices that all of her victims are

410
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:41.519
somehow connected to the Black Panthers.
And so there's this one part where trust

411
00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:45.319
me, I'm not spoiling at listeners, but she gets the nightmare box is

412
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:48.759
what brings these objects that she needs
to make her nightmares, and they're like

413
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:53.119
usually something that belonged to the victim, but there are also these lists that

414
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:57.799
some person gathered by gathering, you
know, spy information on the victims.

415
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:04.839
And so some is out there gathering
information on the victim's greatest fear and they're

416
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:08.319
you know, closest family members and
all this stuff that's going to be used

417
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:12.519
to emotionally hurt them. And so
there's this moment where the main character,

418
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:17.240
Serena, is reading this list that
someone's given her so she can make her

419
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:21.359
latest nightmare, and she notices,
hey, this is typed up on carbon

420
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:25.519
copy, and she starts to think
about the secretary who typed up that list,

421
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:30.160
and whether that secretary who typed up
that list ever thought about what she's

422
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:33.880
doing, because you know, that
secretary was a she right, and so

423
00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:37.200
you know what this list is for
and who uses it? Or she just

424
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:40.160
typing away you know, Okay,
I'm gonna make this list of you know,

425
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:42.599
greatest fears and closest family members,
and then I'm going to file it

426
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:45.759
away and then I'm going to go
and have dinner with my friends or whatever.

427
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:48.119
And then at the same time,
Serena is also going in her own

428
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:53.480
head as she's thinking this, She's
going and what do you tell yourself about

429
00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:59.519
what this list is for? Yes, that was another one of my favorites.

430
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:02.759
And the the end of that one
too, oh, I was like,

431
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:07.319
I'm I'm glad that she turned it
around. That was that was really

432
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:11.400
good too. But even I mean, and you say it after every story,

433
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:15.160
but like what real events, you
know a lot of these stories were

434
00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:18.400
taking place, but like it's not
I think we know a lot of us

435
00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:25.279
know now, especially that these parties, the Black Panther, the Young Lords,

436
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:30.160
they were being infiltrated. So just
to weave in like a bruquat doing

437
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:34.079
this work. But like at first, she wasn't not like not that she

438
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:37.920
wasn't aware, but she wasn't like
I guess awake, you didn't say or

439
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:41.319
she wasn't realizing what she was doing, just to weave that in there.

440
00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:45.799
Amazing, Oh my god. Truly. I mean, the the basic premise

441
00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:48.440
that I thought of with the Nightmare
Box was a bunch of different things.

442
00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:53.440
One of the inspirations comes from a
Stephen King creation because I grew up reading

443
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:57.400
Stephen King. Did have you ever
read The fire Starter or Fire Shorter?

444
00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:02.200
I didn't. It's been on my
list for so long, but I've only

445
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:07.000
read two Stephen King books ever,
Salem's Law and God. It was like

446
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:11.400
a seven book series. What's it
called The Dark Tower? Yeah, the

447
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:15.160
Dark Tower? That was the other
one. So I've only read those two,

448
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:18.880
that one. What about you gotman? I haven't read any you know,

449
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:22.920
there's like I feel like it's definitely
that's a lot of fun to read

450
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:26.960
him if you haven't. There's so
much good horror that it's not like,

451
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.200
you know, you could you could
never read Stephen King and still read plenty

452
00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.079
of wonderful, wonderful horror. And
when you read it now, it's kind

453
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:38.119
of interesting because it's like what we
understand has shifted so much. Like I

454
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:41.839
think he's wonderful, and then I
also think that he's got some serious problems

455
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:48.119
with like the magical Negro theme,
right, yes, the appropriation of some

456
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:52.720
indigenous stories that he's used in the
past. So there's there's yeah, that's

457
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:56.559
that's pretty true. But there are
fun stories, and you know some of

458
00:31:56.599 --> 00:32:00.640
them have like more of that problem
than others. But yes, like so,

459
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:05.039
but there's this what do we call
them, an organization called the Shop,

460
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:08.440
which he invented for some of his
stories. And apparently I played a

461
00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:10.799
minor role in The Stand, which
I didn't read, so I don't know

462
00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:15.799
how it comes out in the Stand. But the Shop, in Stephen King's

463
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:19.920
invention, was basically, you know, they started in the late sixties and

464
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:28.440
they were like cointelpro but with kind
of magic, supernatural, mad scientist kind

465
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:36.079
of stuff. And so in Firestarter, for example, the two parents who

466
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:39.279
create this little girl who can start
fires with her mind, those two parents

467
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:45.920
went through the series of psychedelic experiments
that the Shop organized, and they became

468
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:52.000
permanently altered, very mk ultra.
I mean, it's pretty gnarly. And

469
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:57.359
then the thing is they then make
a baby, and then this baby,

470
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:01.079
because she's got two parents who are
all ready like super altered, then of

471
00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:06.319
course the baby is just extra altered
and extra powerful, and she's the one

472
00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:10.319
who can make start fires with her
mind. And so I thought, well,

473
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:14.880
what if, what if it was
kind of like the shop and but

474
00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:20.279
they were explicitly going after uh,
going after the movement, because that's exactly

475
00:33:20.359 --> 00:33:23.839
what co intel Pro did, And
so that was just it was a really

476
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:29.519
delicious possibility and I kind of might
want to return to it because you know,

477
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:32.359
we know how much co intel Pro
did at the time, like we

478
00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:37.160
know now, yeah, and I'm
sure there's even more that we don't.

479
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:39.119
Don't exactly, Yeah, there's stuff
that will you know, like maybe people

480
00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:42.880
are dead and they and they might
have taken their stories to the grave.

481
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:45.720
But you know, so it was
really fun to write that and to also

482
00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:52.079
write, you know, again the
possibility of the tables getting turned on on

483
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:58.279
this guy, and also to wrestle
with like what about ordinary people in the

484
00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:02.160
movement, you know, or in
the time that the that the story is

485
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:05.880
set, the Nightmare Box is set. You know, a lot of people

486
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.800
really felt like a revolution was coming
any day now, and there were a

487
00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:14.679
lot of ordinary people who work revolutionaries, but who still were maybe trying to

488
00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:16.320
figure out the right thing to do, and so that's who kind of Serena

489
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:22.360
is'. She rolls her eyes at
those people. She thinks they're ridiculous,

490
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:24.280
but she still has to figure out, Okay, well what do I owe

491
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:28.480
you? Even though I think you're
silly and I think you're full of shit

492
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.280
when you're talking about changing the world? Yes, yes, and that and

493
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:37.039
just seeing her like realize was it
was. I mean, yeah, that

494
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:40.440
was a very very fun read.
And the thing she can do scary,

495
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:46.840
very scary. I would watch that
movie. I would love for someone to

496
00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:50.079
make it into a movie. And
I guess that's what we all daydream about,

497
00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:53.119
right, is those of us who
write stuff who could be that movie

498
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:57.760
or who could be in that movie? Sometimes I like to daydream about who

499
00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:01.440
would play her if it were made
movie? And I think I like Jenn

500
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:06.360
Ortega. Okay, okay, yes, I see it. Why was I

501
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:10.840
going to say the same thing?
Yes, yeah, she's a right but

502
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:14.800
she also has such emotional range.
There's also I forget her name, but

503
00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:19.719
the woman who played in West Side
Story, the woman who plays Anita Arianna

504
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.920
Debo's. She plays Anita, the
older sister in a West Side Story,

505
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:28.920
and she's just mesmerizing like that would
be fun too. Because the character Serena

506
00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:31.519
in the story is like part Puerto
Rican. It's not really clear like how

507
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:36.800
many generations back, but there's Puerto
Rican and Mexican in there too, and

508
00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:40.480
like there's African American in there too. I also, I should mention because

509
00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:45.519
this is it was so much fun
to write her making the nightmares and the

510
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:51.559
magic, even if it was really
scary and nary, that I wrote a

511
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:59.960
whole novella that is about another witch, very similar and takes place in a

512
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:02.840
same place in time, and I
wrote it that they're basically cousins but they

513
00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:08.760
don't know it. This sounds amazus
amazing. And the character of the they

514
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:14.840
basically had the same magical tutor.
She's the great aunt in this one in

515
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.159
the Nightmare Box, and she's the
grandma in this other novella called Monca,

516
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:25.840
And in both cases she's like the
magical tutor, and she doesn't she doesn't

517
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:30.519
have any conventional morality. She's like, you know, I don't I don't

518
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:34.239
care what you do with the magical
powers. Just keep it over there,

519
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.639
right, And so she's kind of
a foil to the other characters. But

520
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.920
it was so much fun to write, like, you know, a spell

521
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:44.880
that could make you dance, or
a spell that could turn you silent,

522
00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:47.559
or just different things like that and
kind of play with reality a little bit

523
00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:52.360
that, Yeah, that sounds super
cool. Another thing that like, I

524
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:59.119
the way you wrote her name's Serena
right the in the night. Yeah,

525
00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:02.280
like her, yes, the witch, her attitude, and like up until

526
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:07.119
the end is something that it was
very real all over the world because in

527
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:10.559
nineteen seventies it wasn't just the US. I was seeing these movements. But

528
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:15.880
like something Carmen and I talk about
a little too much is the Salvador in

529
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:19.840
civil war because that's where our dad's
from from Salvador and the civil war.

530
00:37:20.039 --> 00:37:22.920
I mean it was like, you
know, these the right wing military junta

531
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:27.400
and then the leftist revolutionaries, but
then it were there were the people in

532
00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:30.920
the city that were just trying to
work, including our father who all the

533
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:36.519
time, and there's just like this
huge mindset that it was like, oh,

534
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:39.480
both sides were wrong, both sides
of this, both sides did horrible

535
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:44.519
things, when like in reality we
know that a lot of the human rights

536
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:47.800
violations that occurred during that war were
perpetated by the right wing government that was

537
00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:53.000
there. But people are like our
dad, and it wasn't just him,

538
00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:57.239
but this was such a common attitude. But it was like, I don't

539
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:00.719
care what is happening. I'm just
like trying to survive. I'm just trying

540
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:04.719
to work. Because there's like obviously
there's the people that feel like they need

541
00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:07.440
to take up arms because they're being
affected to the most. But then there's

542
00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:10.280
the people that are like, I'm
not worried about that. I'm just trying.

543
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:13.719
I need to live too, Like
I need to worry about me,

544
00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:17.559
and it's not you like I understand
it, of course. And just to

545
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:22.280
see her and I just saw that
story like the same thing that our day

546
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:27.360
tell us in her and I was
like, man, this is it's it's

547
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:30.039
true, and it happens everywhere where. There's like movements like this going on.

548
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:35.960
That is so cool. I what's
funny is I swear I'm a lot

549
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.519
more articulate on the page, And
then I get I get, you know,

550
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:42.280
like in a context of a podcast
or a conversation, and all of

551
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:45.280
a sudden, I get that's cool. I get like Chris Farley inside of

552
00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:51.480
nightlife. But we're the same way, even though we have a podcast feel

553
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:55.480
that way to me. But it's
really beautiful to hear you say that,

554
00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:01.519
Christina, because it's just that's an
angle in particular, like what was going

555
00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:07.800
on in that I wasn't even thinking
about when I wrote it, but that

556
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:13.079
it had that level of meaning is
super is super rich and meaningful. And

557
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:16.000
also that your situation was able you
know that you're able to connect that,

558
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:21.400
and yet they also had in one
common threat is that in both cases it's

559
00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:27.039
US imperialism straight up. Yes,
yes, yes, Like I love the

560
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:31.599
idea honestly of serena kind of you
know, meeting up with other people around

561
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:37.119
the world who have US imperialism as
their enemy. She will never rest.

562
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:42.960
We're not four seven, three sixty
five days a year to be like,

563
00:39:43.480 --> 00:39:50.039
man, I take a bigge.
She's sober out. I mean, I

564
00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:53.960
feel like you can't go anywhere that
has not been touched by imperialism. So

565
00:39:54.280 --> 00:39:58.760
yeah, I think it would be
a shorter list of countries that the US

566
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:04.679
has never invaded or fomented a coup
in, or you know, sent soldiers

567
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:07.920
to, right, Like I think, you know, I'm just trying as

568
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:12.480
I'm talking I'm trying to go okay, wait, okay, no, nope,

569
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:15.719
never mind because they had that invasion, oh never mind. Like it's

570
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:22.079
just it's almost impossible. Yeah,
Like the collective anger of people who have

571
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:28.840
been invaded and taken over and messed
with is just like there's so much there

572
00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:30.760
that that's that could be a whole
that could be a whole bunch of different

573
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:37.239
authors careers to tap into that.
It really could, Yeah, and I

574
00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:42.880
would read every single one of them. Yeah, that would be There are

575
00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:47.239
there Salvadoran authors who you've read,
who you admire, who kind of tap

576
00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:52.360
into that in one way or another, you know, not that I can

577
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:54.639
think of on the top of my
head. I know there's there's people that

578
00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:58.719
will talk about it in different ways
on how like the US, you know,

579
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:01.719
imperialism are cooling some like these things
who have affected their lives, But

580
00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:06.920
like when it comes to like horror, I don't know of any There's a

581
00:41:06.920 --> 00:41:09.199
book I think Carmen and I both
really loved it, but it was also

582
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:14.800
very sad. But it's like a
poet he wrote about his journey from end

583
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:19.920
to the United States. That has
probably been the most like impactful thing I've

584
00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:23.280
read from a Selvadoran writer. It's
called and I think we went on and

585
00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:27.519
on about it on Estodias Unknown,
Yeah, and the Spooky Tales about our

586
00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:30.400
other podcasts that's about history. I
forget where we even talked about it in

587
00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:34.760
some episode, but that is probably, yeah, one of the best,

588
00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:37.800
like books by a Selvadorn author.
But like, I don't, I don't.

589
00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:40.840
I can't even think of that many
authors and I looked it up on

590
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:45.920
the Google. Javier Samora is that
the name. Yeah, there has to

591
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:51.079
be more that you know, just
hasn't hasn't come across you know, our

592
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:54.840
radar, because that was one of
the things that I started realizing when I

593
00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:59.599
started reading a whole lot more speculative
fiction, you know, mostly horror,

594
00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:04.159
but to see in science fiction too
is how I assumed, you know,

595
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:07.760
and this was a straight up you
know, internalized racism. I assumed,

596
00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:10.800
Oh, well, if I haven't
heard of, say, Filipino science fiction,

597
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.760
that must be because it doesn't exist. No, it's just because I

598
00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:19.360
haven't heard of it. But you
know, I had to actually, right,

599
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:22.760
but I had to confront that any
of it straight up is internalized racism.

600
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:27.159
And so I assumed that yes,
there is like a lot of good

601
00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:29.960
Salvador in speculative fiction. And the
fact as soon as we're done recording,

602
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:31.920
in about three minutes after we're done
recording, all the names are going to

603
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:37.119
occur to me all that once.
There are some really yeah, I mean

604
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:42.480
there's some wonderful authors of like Chicanis
and Latinix speculative fiction. All the names

605
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:45.480
are of course, you know,
draining away like water because I have to

606
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:47.760
speak them. But you know,
I was just at Sukra Con, which

607
00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:52.960
is the horror Writer's convention, and
we have PEDROI Nigaz, we have uh

608
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:57.000
Andrew Theyer just to come to the
come to mind. There's Rsa Garcia,

609
00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:00.800
uh, and then of course there's
those who have already come onto the podcast

610
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:06.519
or whose stories have been on the
podcast. You got Varcia to write about

611
00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:13.360
the Mexican experience and the Castro to
write about the Chicana experience. Oh yes,

612
00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:15.760
she's like, you know, the
the MVP basically of ch kind of

613
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:21.360
speculative fiction, because she just not
only does she go there again and again

614
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:25.880
in terms of like the because I'm
thinking about La Rena Laics, which is

615
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:30.840
just oh, I still have to
read that one. Read that one amazing,

616
00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:34.480
gnarly as fuck. I need to
read it, to read it.

617
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:38.400
I've only the one we discussed.
The Hanta Alexandra is the one that I've

618
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:42.679
read of hers, and you know, one thing she she has a lot

619
00:43:42.679 --> 00:43:44.800
of similarities in her books too,
And that was one thing I was going

620
00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:46.599
to bring up with your books to
that A lot of people are like,

621
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:50.519
oh, well, I read fiction
to escape from these kinds of things.

622
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:53.559
But it's like, at some point
does not escape. I mean, there

623
00:43:53.599 --> 00:44:00.840
is an escape when when you're the
person benefiting from it from yeah, oppressions,

624
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:05.039
like you can escape because it doesn't
affect you. But I mean,

625
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:09.159
you know, for us people of
color, like yeah, every day you

626
00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:14.159
know, yeah, it's didn't escapable. So yeah, and to see these

627
00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:17.480
stories and the things that like,
yeah, I don't I guess like if

628
00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:21.320
I see it on the news or
if I know someone and I don't want

629
00:44:21.320 --> 00:44:23.519
to think about the time that the
cop did this to one of us or

630
00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:28.039
one of our cousins. But but
at the same time, when you're reading

631
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:30.320
things like this, it's like you
get to see a different twist on it,

632
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:35.000
You get to see something that's powerful. Yeah, it's powerful. Thank

633
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:37.800
you, Carmen, because you're always
like thinking of smarter ways to say the

634
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:40.400
things that I want to say.
But yeah, and so at the same

635
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:43.800
time, if people are thinking like, oh, I don't want to read

636
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:45.760
a fiction book that is talking about
the real life things that I don't want

637
00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:50.840
to think about, give these type
of books like another chance, especially these

638
00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:53.519
collection of stories, because you like
I feel, I feel like every issue

639
00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:58.239
out there, you're tackling it and
you're giving it a new life and something

640
00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:00.400
that you know it just it makes
you feel better at the end, even

641
00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:04.679
though it was kind of sad along
the way, right, I love that

642
00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:08.000
way of talking about it because and
I'm sorry by my dog is decided that

643
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:10.199
right now is the time to bark
at the front door. So I hope

644
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:15.320
it doesn't carry it through too bovey. But I mean, I think a

645
00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:20.400
couple of things. One is,
I totally get why you know, someone

646
00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:25.559
doesn't necessarily feel ready to tackle the
story about police brutality right now because it's

647
00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:30.679
just too heavy for my part.
I feel like I feel similar I mean,

648
00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:34.599
obviously I wrote them right, but
I feel similarly that that there is

649
00:45:34.719 --> 00:45:39.239
actually a whole a benefit to seeing
well, what would happen if the victims

650
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:44.239
had access to power, Like,
you know, how would that change it?

651
00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:47.119
And wouldn't that be kind of satisfying
and maybe even kind of fun?

652
00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:52.320
So, you know, I feel
like that is kind of a counter.

653
00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:54.159
On the other hand, you know, we have content warnings, you know,

654
00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:58.639
so you read the content warnings.
It is a little hard to read

655
00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:04.679
this collection and not tackle police brutality
stories because depending on how you define it,

656
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:08.159
it's basically exactly half the collection is
police brutality in one way or another.

657
00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:14.800
And you know, some of them
are real stories that I remember hearing

658
00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:16.719
about, like the one at the
end of the road out of Nowhere,

659
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:20.679
that's you know, I changed a
few details, but it's basically other than

660
00:46:20.719 --> 00:46:24.039
that, it's a real story.
And including the part about the dollar bill

661
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:29.119
that's real. Oh yeah, that
part I just lifted directly from reality.

662
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:32.199
And I remember thinking, like I
have to. I felt like this has

663
00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:37.000
to be real, because you can't. Yeah, I remember being afraid that

664
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:40.519
somebody would think I made it up, the whole dollar bill thing, So

665
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:45.199
that's why I made sure to put
the note at the end. So and

666
00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:49.360
then you know, when I when
I was younger I was. I was

667
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:52.280
an activistic inst police brutality, which
is part of the reason why they're in

668
00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:57.119
these stories so much. The cops
are in these stories so much, and

669
00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:01.199
just the feeling of absolute powerlessness and
having I would work with people who,

670
00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:06.440
just like in the story with sold
in the Rope of Thorns, had lost

671
00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:09.679
a love with cops. Oh my
god, Okay, I love that one.

672
00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:14.960
And the ending that was I feel
like I'm just gonna keep saying that,

673
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:19.840
and the ending I feel like to
write and to you know, like

674
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:23.199
the ending is actually the most important
thing because if you fumble it at the

675
00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:29.440
very very end, people will be
like, oh, like and and you

676
00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:30.599
don't want to do that. You
want to you want to deliver ending.

677
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:35.440
That's that that makes it makes the
person either like you know, sometimes it's

678
00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:38.440
extremely painful, but the ending has
to has to be earned and you have

679
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:43.800
to deliver at the end. And
the ending of the Rope Thorns, obviously

680
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:47.000
you know we're not going to say
how it gets tackled, but the ending

681
00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:51.360
was very satisfying to write, and
so I'm so glad that it landed for

682
00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:53.400
you on the page that way too. I forgot to mention that was another

683
00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:58.039
one of my favorites. I just
I loved I'm like, I want a

684
00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:01.559
little like toy of we done.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think

685
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:06.599
it would be so much fun.
Like he's kind of his image his look

686
00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:08.519
came from an actual puppet that I
had, and I don't know what the

687
00:48:08.599 --> 00:48:10.960
hell happened to it orf I lost
it, and so I'm very sad.

688
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:14.920
So every once in a while I
tried to like google it to see because

689
00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:17.199
you know, I bought it in
Mexico. It's a you know, like

690
00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:22.239
a head of a coconut, you
know, have coconut shell on the body

691
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:25.519
of like paper machet and black and
paper machet, and so I do want

692
00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:28.480
to track that down. But it
would be so much fun to have a

693
00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:30.400
little weeks though, But it was
also so much fun, you know,

694
00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:34.280
and this is a mild spoiler,
so we can turn your ears away,

695
00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:37.280
But it was so much fun to
have a different to imagine something different for

696
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:40.960
those families who had lost a loved
one, because in real life, those

697
00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:45.280
people never have had any justice.
And you know, I would march with

698
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:50.880
them, We would have marches against
police brutality, and I would be On

699
00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:53.800
the one hand, it felt so
good and empowering to be standing up and

700
00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:58.400
fighting back. But on the other
hand, at the end of the day

701
00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:00.960
they would do all that and not
only was there loved one is still gone,

702
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:02.599
but you know, the cop who
had had done the killing was still

703
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:08.199
there and had that job. And
so it felt as a young person,

704
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:12.440
it was just so scarring, frankly, and so this was kind of a

705
00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:15.400
way to put a different ball on
that scars on those scars. Yeah,

706
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:20.599
and it was beautifully done, because
I want to say it just happened.

707
00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:24.039
But Carmen covered on our other podcast
Estoia Has Are Known a while back.

708
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:31.480
She covered an episode on it was
his name Santos Rodriguez, and it's it

709
00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:37.880
was such a horrible case of police
brutality in Texas where you know, I

710
00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:40.440
mean, I'm not gonna like fully
go into it because there's a whole episode

711
00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:44.880
on it and it's going to be
long, but it's it's such a horrible

712
00:49:44.920 --> 00:49:49.559
case. But basically the you know, this cop he killed this young boy,

713
00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:52.559
this young Mexican boy, and his
brother was in the car when it

714
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:55.159
happened, and like at the end
of the day, there's you know,

715
00:49:55.639 --> 00:50:00.119
surviving family that they they are still
dealing with this, and this happen in

716
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:05.400
what was it the nineteen eighties,
nineties, nineteen seventy three, nineteen seventy

717
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:10.599
three, and one of the people
that listened to the episode sent us a

718
00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:15.320
post that because they had a whole
they made a whole statue for him not

719
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:19.960
too long ago to like, you
know, have Santos in everyone's like memory,

720
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:22.000
and the brother visited the statue for
the first time, and this listener

721
00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:25.760
sent us the post that they made
about this, and like just and it's

722
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:29.320
funny because I'm like reading all these
stories and I'm like, man, like

723
00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:32.440
we just this listener just sent us
this, and it's like something that has

724
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:37.480
like never gone away, and like
will it ever not when you know this

725
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:40.840
curtain system is still what it is. So just to read you know,

726
00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:45.079
a different even you know, even
though it's like you know, fiction,

727
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:47.719
just to read a different like outcome, it's it feels good, it does,

728
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:52.199
And I'm very glad that it feels
good to read, because it felt

729
00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:57.280
it felt good to write. And
I love actually imagining who I would sick

730
00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:06.800
with sol On if he were real
Mack in my list as we speaks,

731
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:08.280
because that's what he's good at right, Like he leaves no trace, like,

732
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:12.159
and what are you gonna do?
Say, I saw this good come

733
00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:16.840
out and you know then they killed, like's gonna believe I was going because

734
00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:20.599
that's what they do in real life, the cops. That's what Yeah,

735
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:22.519
that's what they say. Yeah,
yeah, they just count on it.

736
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:27.000
So so yeah, that was.
That was one of the more recent ones

737
00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:29.760
that I wrote. I think that
was. I wrote that, like I

738
00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:34.199
think I was like frantically finishing editing
that when it was time to submit the

739
00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:37.800
collection to the publisher, and I
almost missed the cutoff, but I've said

740
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:40.480
no, no, no, I
have, I have, and we're so

741
00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:49.000
glad I made it. Yeah,
okay, well I guess we could wrap

742
00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:51.960
up because I'm getting a little hungry. Wait, I just want to say

743
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:53.920
one more thing I was gonna say. Yeah, I just like I love

744
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:58.480
the recurring theme, like you said, of people I don't know, taking

745
00:51:58.840 --> 00:52:02.559
their power back, having power in
society that they you know, had to

746
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:07.719
fight so hard to have that,
and it's it's almost healing in a way.

747
00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:12.679
I think to read stories like that
with different outcomes and I don't things

748
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:16.519
that people are every day working for, right it's not like impossible, like

749
00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:22.039
people are fighting to have that.
I really love that that that feels good

750
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:27.199
to read and that it feels like
healing is because we walk outside and you

751
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:30.039
know, maybe we spend all this
work trying to have like a nice calm

752
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:32.199
morning before going out into the world, and then we walk outside and we

753
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:35.519
have to see it all over again, or how we didn't even need that.

754
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:38.559
We could just open up our phone
right or our laptop and scroll through,

755
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:43.760
and you know, we're constantly getting
these scars inflicted on us, and

756
00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:49.119
so it's it's really good to have
different ways to heal and to think that

757
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:54.599
these stories had their part to play, like it's really satisfying. And I

758
00:52:54.599 --> 00:52:58.480
feel like I'm not sure. I
think we'd sol would be like, okay,

759
00:52:58.480 --> 00:53:00.559
cool, and I think some of
the other kids we should be like

760
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:13.239
that's whateful. So they all think
all the characters, yes, okay,

761
00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:17.119
And then before we go, we
always want to do spooky recommendations. Carmen,

762
00:53:17.159 --> 00:53:22.719
do you have any I don't think
so other than this book. Other

763
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:25.599
than this book that's mine too.
I've already ordered it. It is so

764
00:53:25.639 --> 00:53:31.400
awesome and I'm also I'm changing the
release schedule, So this comes out this

765
00:53:31.519 --> 00:53:37.199
Friday, because it releases on the
ninth, right, Okay, so yes,

766
00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:39.519
this is going to come out on
Friday and then the week after everyone.

767
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:43.760
I mean, you can already pre
order it at the time real listening

768
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:45.679
to this and you must. It's
so good, like I already did it.

769
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:50.159
And also, I guess, do
you have any spooky recommendations because we've

770
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:52.360
already read. I wish i'd compared, because I'm staring at a whole shelf

771
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:57.760
of books right now and they're all
really good. But in terms of this,

772
00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:02.840
so there's a a collection called The
Skin Thief by a writer named Susan

773
00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:07.920
Palambo, and I've only had time
to read two of them because I sort

774
00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:09.280
of nibble at it and then put
it back away and then nibble at it

775
00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:14.039
again. But one of the things
that I love about the collection so far

776
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:19.519
is she tackles a lot of similar
themes of identity and what it is to

777
00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:23.199
be a marginalized person. And the
whole concept of The skin Thief is to

778
00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:28.840
have your identity be taken from you
and then what does that do to you?

779
00:54:29.639 --> 00:54:32.119
And so it's a really I haven't
finished it, but it's a really

780
00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:37.320
enjoyable collection so far. So I
would recommend recommend that for sure, and

781
00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:42.880
then if you like more, just
if you love like dark berry tamps,

782
00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:47.039
this is a little bit of a
deeper cut. But Angela Carter wrote this

783
00:54:47.119 --> 00:54:50.679
book. Oh boy, she wrote
a lot of books and now I'm trying

784
00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:55.760
to remember the name of the particular
collection that I'm thinking of, because she

785
00:54:57.119 --> 00:55:02.119
wrote a take on the Lizzie Borden
story that was just so much fun.

786
00:55:02.199 --> 00:55:07.800
Like when you read the end of
her Lizzie Bordon story, you will absolutely

787
00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:13.119
like cheer on Lizzie Bordon. You'll
be convinced that Lizzy Bordon did the killing.

788
00:55:14.599 --> 00:55:16.920
I was kind of a ready story
and you're like, oh my god,

789
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:20.679
go girl. I mean not quite
as it's a little bit of a

790
00:55:20.679 --> 00:55:23.639
cliche that you go girl, but
you definitely will have a lot of sympathy

791
00:55:23.719 --> 00:55:27.960
for Lizzie Bordon and you will feel
like the parents deserve what they got.

792
00:55:29.199 --> 00:55:31.719
So so yeah, it's It's The
Bloody Chamber is the most famous book that

793
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:36.440
she wrote. But I will look
up into the second the one that has

794
00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:39.320
the Lizzy the Lizzie Bordon story,
because I think it's a different collection.

795
00:55:39.800 --> 00:55:44.599
Yeah, so the skin Thief and
Angela Carter. I'm going to add those

796
00:55:44.679 --> 00:55:49.719
both to my TV are the other
cool thing Dimensioned. If you are thinking

797
00:55:49.719 --> 00:55:52.639
about pre ordering, if anyone who's
listening, is if you ordered directly from

798
00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:59.280
the publisher from Kurs Morse Press,
you also get this little zine that I

799
00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:05.679
helped edit that is on the scene
of Solidarity Forever, and it's all about

800
00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:08.679
that theme, right, is the
power of solidarity. And so that's a

801
00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:13.760
free little gift that you get if
you sweets. I did pre order it.

802
00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:16.679
Stress on the Polisher I'm excited.
Action that I was thinking of was

803
00:56:16.719 --> 00:56:21.880
called Saints and Strangers, and the
story about the z Boord is called the

804
00:56:21.920 --> 00:56:25.159
Fall River Experters. Okay, okay, I'm going to have to add that

805
00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:29.440
to my list too, and I
will put all that in the show notes

806
00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:31.280
as well. But most importantly that
will be in their show notes is the

807
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:37.480
link to get the Nimer Box and
other stories, because honestly, it's a

808
00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:39.679
must read and I'm pretty sure all
of our listeners would enjoy it. We

809
00:56:39.719 --> 00:56:45.360
did get messages about the Shivering World
and how it was like a couple,

810
00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:50.400
but the people that I did get
it loved the Shivering World. So this

811
00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:53.079
this book also amazing, so everyone
needs to get it. It's so good,

812
00:56:53.320 --> 00:56:58.079
Thank you very much, yes,
of course. And then one more

813
00:56:58.119 --> 00:57:01.559
thing. Is there any that listeners
can find you, like where you want

814
00:57:01.599 --> 00:57:05.960
to be found online? If they
want to follow you or anything? If

815
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:08.000
I want to be found if it
sounds very like uh, you know,

816
00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:15.719
Jason, I stole it from Scam
Gods. I love that name. She

817
00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:20.440
always says that it's fun. It's
about scams. Oh, I am obsessed

818
00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:23.400
with scams, okay, And it's
and she's a comedian and she always has

819
00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:27.800
comedians on. And some episodes are
so funny. If anyone has not listened

820
00:57:27.800 --> 00:57:30.920
and they need to, you need
to check out the Eladia Baldwin episode.

821
00:57:30.920 --> 00:57:34.440
That's probably my favorite one. Also
like the one on Oh my God,

822
00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:37.840
I can't remember his real name,
but they call him so many different nicknames.

823
00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:45.199
Oh you know, ye want to
say his real name because I know

824
00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:51.000
what it is. I remember what
it is. But yes, oh that's

825
00:57:51.079 --> 00:57:55.280
right, you those okay. Eladia
Bodowin and the Shaun King episodes are probably

826
00:57:55.360 --> 00:57:59.679
like on the top of like the
best episodes of Scam Goddess ever, the

827
00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:02.199
really good so I will look that
up, because I really do. I

828
00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:07.920
love reading about scams and scam artists. So yeah, so that's all of

829
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:10.039
fun. So in terms of where
people can find so, I have a

830
00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:15.559
website that I almost never update because
I am kind of a luddite and I'm

831
00:58:15.800 --> 00:58:20.159
kind of an old but I do
have one. It's called Cynthia SA's boo

832
00:58:20.239 --> 00:58:23.800
dot org press and there's a link
tree there where you can find my writings

833
00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:27.840
and everyone's in a blue mood.
I actually update it, but for the

834
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:30.400
most part, I just curse at
it. I try to figure out why

835
00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:35.480
it doesn't work the way it's supposed
to. And all right, I guess

836
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:38.000
this brings us to the end of
the episode. Let's say, before we

837
00:58:38.039 --> 00:58:42.679
go, Carmen and I will be
oh my god, it's coming up.

838
00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:45.840
Carmen, Damn, did you book
the car rental? I still need to

839
00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:49.800
get the carnal. Carmen and I
we're going to be in Denver. We're

840
00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:52.760
gonna be at the True Crime Paranormal
Podcast Festival, and you can find us

841
00:58:52.760 --> 00:58:55.400
there. We're gonna have a little
panel, and that little panel is also

842
00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:59.840
going to be online. I think
I'll double check that and I will share

843
00:58:59.880 --> 00:59:02.480
the links in the socials as well, because I think I think if I

844
00:59:02.559 --> 00:59:06.760
recall that it was going to be
available for like a virtual ticket if anyone

845
00:59:06.760 --> 00:59:09.039
wants to do that, but if
anyone is in the area and you want

846
00:59:09.079 --> 00:59:13.519
to go do so that we can
meet you. We can say Hi,

847
00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:15.559
I'm gonna have a couple of stickers
to hand out, and that's it.

848
00:59:16.760 --> 00:59:21.800
I don't know how people have all
this like extra Monday for merriage not I

849
00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:27.440
oh before we go though, I
forgot to say. But I obviously I

850
00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:30.239
knew that Oakland was going to come
up again. But then I saw Modesto

851
00:59:30.320 --> 00:59:31.719
in the book, and I was
like, oh my god, Modesto because

852
00:59:31.760 --> 00:59:36.199
that's that's where we went. And
so we grew up in Oakland, and

853
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:38.960
then when we reached like high school
age, we moved to Modesto because and

854
00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:42.480
I think we talked about it last
time we recorded, but we got like,

855
00:59:42.519 --> 00:59:45.320
you know, pushed out of Oakland
because of all the high renting prices,

856
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:49.239
and that's when we went to Modesto. So when I saw Modesto come

857
00:59:49.320 --> 00:59:51.760
up in one of the stories,
I'm like, the two places that I

858
00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:53.039
like still love to talk about.
And I know people like to hit him

859
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:59.039
modesto, but I have fund memories, so every time we hear modesto or

860
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:02.800
like anything, and I like two
O nine, that's so stocked in.

861
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:06.480
Did Starck thing come up too?
I think it did, right, Remember

862
01:00:06.519 --> 01:00:08.199
Stockton? Did I know Madesta did
it? It's where it's where the family

863
01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:13.800
and in will they disappeared like because
they're always bopping around. But yeah,

864
01:00:14.559 --> 01:00:16.519
I remember that. We talked about
your your roots in Oakland, and it's

865
01:00:16.519 --> 01:00:21.199
why I was really happy to come
back here on this pod because we had

866
01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:27.360
such cool conversations about Oakland and what
it means and the history here and so

867
01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:30.000
it's so much fun. Also,
by the way, I've been meaning to

868
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:34.360
mention this the whole time we've been
recording. Uh, Christina, the painting

869
01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:38.760
that you have. Listeners can't see
it, but behind Christina is just this

870
01:00:38.800 --> 01:00:45.400
wonderful painting still from Scream from the
first Scream, and it's Yeah, it's

871
01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:50.800
a brilliant Stew And you know they're
they're they're You've got Stew gazing lovingly at

872
01:00:50.800 --> 01:00:58.480
Billy just the way he does.
They're cuddling bloody. Yeah, it's the

873
01:00:58.519 --> 01:01:05.559
oldest child for Alma from Nightmare on
Fifth Street paint today, and then she

874
01:01:06.079 --> 01:01:08.719
on my made it available for a
while to buy, and I don't think

875
01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:12.719
they have it up anymore. But
when the minute she put it up,

876
01:01:12.719 --> 01:01:15.639
I'm like, I need it.
Yes, and it's yes, it's it's

877
01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:21.599
it's so well done and look blowing
eyes. Yeah. And it's funny the

878
01:01:21.599 --> 01:01:23.159
things we pick up on, because
I did not pick up on any of

879
01:01:23.199 --> 01:01:27.159
that homerootic stuff the first time I
watched it. And then I watched it

880
01:01:27.159 --> 01:01:30.159
again a couple of years ago,
and I was like, it was right

881
01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:37.239
there. I I caught it when
Scary Movie made it. Yeah, h

882
01:01:37.239 --> 01:01:40.440
no, Scary Movie two. It's
the two, which was the one that

883
01:01:40.519 --> 01:01:45.440
was the first one. It's the
first one. It's the first movie.

884
01:01:45.519 --> 01:01:49.400
Yeah. Yeah, where they Yeah, they make they make them like super

885
01:01:49.519 --> 01:01:54.039
good. They make that big leap. Oh man, No it's not it's

886
01:01:54.079 --> 01:01:57.360
really not. Okay, Well,
I want to take him up any more

887
01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:00.880
of your time and also my own, because I gotta get to being to

888
01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:04.159
record. Thank you so much for
having me and for letting me babbel about

889
01:02:04.159 --> 01:02:08.480
Oakland and stories and magic and the
supernatural for an hour. Listen anytime anything

890
01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:13.880
you ever write, come welcome back
always you know what, you know,

891
01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:15.599
what you must. It's not even
like you're welcome, like it just has

892
01:02:15.639 --> 01:02:20.400
to happen. Anytime you send something
this is open horror back. I'm like,

893
01:02:20.480 --> 01:02:24.920
yeah, let's do it's right now, say no more. I have

894
01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:30.360
a have a novella and she's coming
out at some point because I'm sending her

895
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:32.880
out. And I'm confident that at
some point when Yaka will find a home

896
01:02:32.920 --> 01:02:37.639
that's the one that I was mentioning
about witchcraft again. So if and when

897
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:39.159
when Yaka friends it home, I
will I will hit you guys up and

898
01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:44.280
we'll talk about okay when it does
for sure, for sure, all right,

899
01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:46.159
thank you so much, yes,
of course, no, thank you,

900
01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:50.400
And everyone else I don't know,
say it's spooky. We'll catch you

901
01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:59.159
next time. By My Spooky Sales
is hosted by Christina and MJ, produced

902
01:02:59.159 --> 01:03:05.199
and edited by Christina. Everything is
written and researched by Christina MJ and with

903
01:03:05.360 --> 01:03:07.880
the help of Don Shout Out Don. Thank you so much for your help.

904
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:13.360
If you love what you hear,
consider living us a five star review.

905
01:03:13.400 --> 01:03:15.840
If you don't, then do not
leave us anything please. If you

906
01:03:15.880 --> 01:03:21.280
want short spooky stories, follow us
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907
01:03:21.320 --> 01:03:24.119
also find some of the same videos
posted on Instagram and that is at Spooky

908
01:03:24.119 --> 01:03:28.480
Taels. Everything is linked in the
show notes. If you want bonus episodes,

909
01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:32.039
stickers, exclusives, stickers might I
add, then consider joining our patreon

910
01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:37.800
go over to patreon dot com slash
Spooky Tails. There are over at least

911
01:03:37.800 --> 01:03:42.480
fifteen bonus episodes right now, and
we do at least one a month,

912
01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:47.000
sometimes two, depending on how we
are feeling. If you want to support

913
01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:52.719
the podcast and don't or can't or
don't want to, that's fine. Join

914
01:03:52.760 --> 01:03:55.920
the Patreon, then consider getting some
merch. We have an adorable beanie that

915
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.360
I love. I absolutely adore it. It's so comfy, it's warm,

916
01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:04.880
it has a spooky in Old English
letters. There's also a baseball hat in

917
01:04:04.920 --> 01:04:08.679
the same way as spooky and Old
English letters, and that's what I wear

918
01:04:08.679 --> 01:04:12.079
in the summers. They're both awesome
hats. And there's other things in there,

919
01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:15.039
like the no Mama's shirts, which
is a very popular shirt. If

920
01:04:15.079 --> 01:04:18.760
you like history, check out my
other podcast, Istodia is Unknown, hosted

921
01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:24.400
with the unofficial official guest co host
of a Spooky teals Carmen, and if

922
01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:29.079
you like no VELAs, checkout Novelaskofizito, which Carmen and I also host together.

923
01:04:29.559 --> 01:04:32.039
And yeah, we love every single
listen every single a spooky thank you

924
01:04:32.079 --> 01:04:33.960
so much, stay as spooky