March 20, 2026

The Dark Side of Cesar Chavez

The Dark Side of Cesar Chavez
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On 3/18, the NYT dropped its years-long investigation into Cesar Chavez, and in it, survivors told their stories for the first time. It revealed that he abused them when they were minors. In this episode, we share the new allegations, but also discuss a troubling past that involves anger issues, being controlling, the wet lines, his admiration for a cult leader, and more.

sexual assault resources:https://doloreshuerta.org/sexual_assault_resources/

Historias Unknown: https://www.historiasunknown.com/

sources: 

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/18/us/cesar-chavez-sexual-abuse-allegations-ufw.html?smid=url-share
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/18/us/cesar-chavez-sexual-assault-allegations-takeaways.html?rsrc=flt&smid=url-share
https://medium.com/@dolores_huerta/march-18-2026-e74c20430555
The Crusades of Cesar Chavez by Miriam Pawel
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-madness-of-cesar-chavez/308557/
https://www.texasstandard.org/stories/cesar-chavez-complicated-legacy-united-farm-workers-immigration/
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-03-29/cesar-chavez-problematic-miriam-pawel

WEBVTT

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Hello, Hello, This is Christina and Carmen and this is

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another episode of his Spooky Tales, a podcast for all

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things spooky, true crime, myths, legends in Latin America, or

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just you know Latino things in the US. This month,

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we said we were going to only do femicide cases. However,

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something very pressing has come up. Yeah, today, March eighteenth,

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twenty twenty sixth, at the time of recording, very dark

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allegations of sexual abuse have been made against Sasa Chavis.

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And we say allegations because like none of this is

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like legally confirmed in the eyes of the law, right,

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but there's like sixty people who corroborated this, like the

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New York Timessy. Yeah, they they went in deep in

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this report of THEIRS reporting of theirs. These allegations involved

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and Dolts Wertha herself. Before we get into that though,

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over at our history podcast East Dordias Unknown, which is

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always linked in the show notes. Last year we did

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a five part episode series on Tessa Chavs and we

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went in pretty deep in those episodes. Yeah, and I'm

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going to share a very condensed version of what we

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went through in those episodes right now before talking about

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the new allegations just for context, because I feel like

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this might be like a surprise for a lot of people,

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but there's a long pattern of like disturbing and violent

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behavior from him from Tasa Chavis, and so that's why

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we're sharing this condensed version of those episodes here. Because

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also I've seen some pretty disturbing comments, like one always

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blaming the women, right, especially dolo is Wertha right now. Yeah,

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I was very discuss said by some of the comments

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I've seen basically say well, what did she know?

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And it's like she was abused.

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You know how much bravery it takes because the message

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is like these comments like that for survivors of sexual

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abuse to come forward, for women to come forward, and

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it takes years, like for example, like people that are

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abuse as children, it takes them I don't remember the number,

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but it's like thirty twenty to thirty years to disclose

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what happened. And even as an adult, it takes so

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much time first to come to terms with yourself as

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to what happened, Like it takes people years because we're

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conditioned as a society in rape culture, right, so we're

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already conditioned for I guess I just abuse of children

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and women is normalized. So it takes already so much

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time for some survivors of sexual abuse to realize they

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were even sexual abused, so much time to overcome, work

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through the shame, to disclose your stories. And it is

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a survivor's choice when they disclose, and just because they

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keep something to themselves, because that's a huge, huge thing,

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you know what I mean, it's no small thing, and

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it takes I forgot I was saying, God her thought

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because it's not mad, but uh, it's their right to

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disclose when they're ready to disclose. And sometimes all it

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takes is one person to disclose and the rest of

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the survivors come forward with their stories, which is what

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happened here. It's what happened here, and it so happens

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all the time, and so it's embarrassing, honestly, if you're saying, oh,

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there is what that was his accomplice, No, she was

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abused by him. Someone left to comment saying, what if

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she's like Gloria Trevi And I'm like, first, like, it

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is way too early, Like what is why is that

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your first thought to blame a woman when the man

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who abused her and others is the person who's it

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wrong here? Right? Other disturbing comments I saw is people

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saying that this was a part of a conspiracy to

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distract from the Epstein Files. Yeah, and it's like, stop

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making everything about the Epstein Files. I'm sorry, but like,

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but also, this is the same situation of uncontrolled, unfettered patriarchy,

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unfettered toxic masculinity, masculinity un I don't know, like unhinged

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men who who are in control and thrive off that

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control and abuse of others. Yeah, they're like one side

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of the same coin. Yeah, exactly. And so like the

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I think, why why I wanted to share all the

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context before is because it's going to establish a long pattern.

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This isn't just a distraction. This isn't why are they

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coming out now with this? What is behind this? Like yeah,

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please stop and like think and yeah, so we're not

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getting into like the UfW strikes or the betrayal of

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Larry Itlong and the Filipino farm workers. That's the tip

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of the iceberg when it comes to Sasa Chavis. We

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did go way deeper in that five part episode series

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on Estonia's Unknown, but I feel like now at this

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point in time, this has been well known that the

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Filipino farm workers were betrayed. Yeah, and especially Larry iong So.

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Dolores Werta was one of Sasa Chavas's earliest and most

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loyal supporters, probably second only to his wife, Helen Chaves.

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Dolors Werta and Sesa Chaves knew each other from CSOU,

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another organization in California. They both worked there. It was

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like a community organizing organ type of place. Again, we

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talked to way more about it in Estonia's a known

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and in many ways she was like him, dedicated to

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the cause, much to the detriment of her own personal relationships,

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children included. The cause came first, and this culture of

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the cause coming first at all costs was part of

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the culture that was created in the UfW to have

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it run like a cult under a Sasa Chavis like.

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I'm sure that's not the case today, but that is

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the atmosphere that he created exactly exactly, And so she

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was a dedicated worker, like beyond dedicated. She spoke up

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when she had thoughts, when she needed to have her voice,

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she spoke up, which, like a lot of men were

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not used to, including Sa sad Chavis and like a

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lot of times he would address his issues with her

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in private, but he occasionally like burst out her in

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anger in public in front of everyone. During one meeting,

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he yelled at her, I don't give a damn what

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you think or anyone thinks. I'm going to run it

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the way I want to run it. And if you

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don't like it, too bad, get out. I don't want

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to argue with you. If you don't want to take

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orders from me, then get out. I've had it. And

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those who were the closest to him were super used

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to outbursts from him like that. This is a super

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regular thing he did, and says chav is also like

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to be in control, even in like situations where like

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you kind of have to let control go. He didn't

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like he controlled everything, and that included like everything in

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the UfW everything, and the UfW is a United for Workers.

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I don't know if we said already, but in case

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anyone doesn't know. One of the ways he maintained control

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in the UfW was to go through a purging of

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union members and keeping a very very tight inner circle,

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which the inner circle happened to be almost only anglow

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at one point during the year of the union, he

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had like one Mexican American labor in his inner circle,

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and eventually that person was purged as well. And purging

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the purgings or like the kicking out of members. It

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was always public and humiliating for those that he fired.

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It was like a humiliation.

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Ritual to maintain power and control, as is common in colts. Exactly,

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at some point when the famous grape strikes that we

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all know, when those began, he announced that he was

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going to he was going to establish lap Pass, which

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was a compound. It would serve as a spiritual retreat

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and isolated place for him and the farm workers. And

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Lapass played a big part in the new allegations that

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we will talk about, because yeah, there was a reason

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he wanted to be isolated, right yeah. And I think

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any moment, any moment you get a compound in any that's.

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Just a red flag all around. Yeah.

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Yeah, because he had this office called forty acres, but

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forty acres wasn't enough, and that's when they announced LAPAs

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and he died before the fall the other thing could happen.

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But after LAPAs, he also wanted this other like even

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more isolated, yeah, called Los Menos. Do you remember that

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loose menos Yah? Yeah, yeah, But LAPAs did happen, and

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over time, more and more farm worker families moved to

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LAPAs and Lapaz was yeah, out of the way, it

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was in the mountains. In the fall of nineteen seventy four,

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so such Iris was touring Europe to gain support for

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the boycott of different products that was happening, so like

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lettuce was one of them that was happening during this

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time period. And so in this Europe tour, he even

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got to meet the Pope and he talked with the

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Pope about the plight of the farm workers, and it

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was like a Catholic boy's dream come true, this meeting

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the pope. Of course, because we're not going to go

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into a hero. But one of the things that he

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did a lot was like use like religious imagery and

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like Catholic sacrifice to strengthen the cause.

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I guess you.

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Could say, yeah, yeah, which again we went into all

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that like it is included fasting whenever they did like

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those like super super long marches, like not wearing. It

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also reminds me of like a high control group and

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cult behavior because yes, fascine is like a thing in

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religion which some would.

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Say it's also a high control group.

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But cults are very well known for also for I

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don't know, weird eating habits is not the right thing,

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but they basically they they deprived their members of sleep

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and food in order to control them easier.

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And so this is like a similar thing.

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Yeah, And but he was doing it to make it

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under the guise of Catholicism, yes, and to make himself

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look like a martyr, which would give him like myth

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making in real life. Like yeah, yeah, it's all part

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of the same thing. It's a part of controlling his

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image and how he wants people to see him. Yes, yes, exactly,

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and so yeah, he got to meet the Pope. While

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he was doing this, his cousin Manuel Chavez was back

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home doing what some might call like very not Christian

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like behavior, but some might actually see it as very

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Christian type behavior, depending on what religion you are, I

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guess anyway, So Sisa Chilvis over the years when this

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happened nineteen seventy four, had already shared his sentiment on

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undocumented workers, but it only got worse after the failure

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of the letter strikes. He would say things like, quote,

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if we can get the illegals out of California, we

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will win the strike overnight end quote, which the strike

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wasn't going well, he would immediately blame undocumented workers. Yeah,

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and it wasn't their fault, like part of it. Like,

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I think what was missing here was thinking like who

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is explaining the who is the one wanting.

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To pay them less? Who's offering this? Yeah?

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I mean this is just a punching down type of attitude,

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like instead of being at the people in power, you're

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mad at the people being taken advantage of and in

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a more vulnerable position than yourself.

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Right, right.

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And I've actually been seeing so now that all of

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this has surfaced about Caesar and Travis, people are talking

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about all his other issues, one of those issues.

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Being what you're talking about right now.

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His xenophobic and anti undocumented immigrant or farm worker beliefs.

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And I'm still seeing people defending him or like minimizing it.

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Oh no, No, his issue wasn't that they were legals

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first of all. Yeah, it was because it wasn't as fuck,

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it was that they were crossing the picket line. And

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it's like, okay, he was met at the wrong people though,

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and it doesn't mean he was right. And people are

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still defending this, trying to justify it. Oh, they were

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messing with the strikes, and I'm like, at the end

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of the day, it doesn't matter. He was xenophobic. He

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was anti immigrant, anti undocumented people, and that's wrong. Yeah,

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and of sentence like no further justification, Like stop trying

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to like whitewash this.

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Man, you know what I mean?

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Yes, or image launder I don't know, Like are when

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we passed that at this point, you would think because

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me discussing things are coming out and you're still like,

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Pender's not the right worry. You're still like trying to

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like twist this positive thing on him, right, And these

222
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these anti immigrant sentiments have been going around for years

223
00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:55.759
at this point, Oh, this is old, this is old news.

224
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As they say, he would blame the undocumented workers when

225
00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:02.200
where any strike wasn't going well. He would call them

226
00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:05.799
slurs like wet backs and illegals. He often said that

227
00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:08.919
CIA was involved in a conspiracy to bring in illegals

228
00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:11.320
to undermine his union. This was not backed up by

229
00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:15.200
any evidence, like we know that the FBI, and this

230
00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:20.639
is still a dumb ass right wing belief that the government,

231
00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:25.519
the Democrats, are bringing in undocumented people to bring their

232
00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:29.559
numbers up, even though undocumented people can't vote. Democrats don't

233
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actually like undocumented people either. Well they're not. They're not

234
00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:39.960
pro immigration. In reality, they're pro capitalism, right, Yeah, everyone

235
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:42.919
is pro capitalism at the end of the day. But

236
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:47.639
also one of the biggest like reasons that the Filipino

237
00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:52.279
farm workers and Larry Leong went or had clashes was

238
00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.840
such ivist before he straight up like just betrayed them,

239
00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:59.399
was because they had very communist views, which you, honestly

240
00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:04.720
you need when you're doing labor. Yeah, organizing, like please,

241
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.720
this is bare minimum, Like communist is not a fucking

242
00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.879
dirty word. Like stop stop, Like no, I'm not gonna

243
00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:13.759
get into that run right now. But that was one

244
00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.240
of the issues between them. But how are you going

245
00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:21.919
to be a pro union, pro workers' rights and then

246
00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:22.559
have this.

247
00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:24.039
Issue with communism as well?

248
00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.039
Like what do you? But that's that that's the thing,

249
00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:30.799
says Chavis was upheld as this leader by the Democratic

250
00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:37.080
Party because he wasn't he was very anti communists. He

251
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.480
was he was pro himself, yeah, and pro the power

252
00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.759
that being in this position got him. Yes, yes, exactly,

253
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:48.919
and that was one of the strikes between the Filipino

254
00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:53.799
form workers and him. He didn't and when he would

255
00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:57.159
do the purges of the union, it would be like

256
00:15:57.240 --> 00:15:58.919
one of the main reasons he would us is like, oh,

257
00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:04.759
you're you're talking with communist newspapers, you're talking to communists organizations,

258
00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:07.279
And sometimes it wasn't even true. And that's the excuse

259
00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:10.720
he would use, was his excuse. Yeah, yeah, So yeah,

260
00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:13.759
he thought that CIA was doing this and the FBI

261
00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:16.120
were surveilling him, and they weren't because he was very

262
00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:20.720
even though like in the beginning he was organized and

263
00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:23.120
he was a threat to them, later on as the

264
00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:26.600
years went by, they were like, no, we this is

265
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:27.360
someone we need.

266
00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:27.879
Like they didn't.

267
00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:30.679
They don't have a file, a long ass file like

268
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:37.399
they did on MLK or Yah Malcolm X. Like there

269
00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:41.200
was no surveillance like he thought was happening, which made

270
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:43.720
him paranoid. But that was part of the power getting

271
00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:47.159
to him, the paranoia and the purging of members. Yeah,

272
00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:49.320
and that's why people have a lot of people have

273
00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:51.919
viewed him as a sellout for a long time because

274
00:16:51.919 --> 00:17:01.679
of that. Yes, sorry, I got a little off track there.

275
00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:05.759
But with Cessa chaviss in Europe, that's where we left us,

276
00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:09.119
and Manoil Chavis is back in California. And so with

277
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:13.799
Cessa Chavis's approval and with UfW union money, Manuil Chavis

278
00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:16.480
set up his cousin, Manoid Chavis set up what he

279
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:20.599
called wetlines. These were patrols along the Arizona border done

280
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:25.799
by UfW members paying UfW members were patrolling. They were

281
00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:30.599
like a private border patrol exactly. Their first their job

282
00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:33.519
was to stop those trying to cross in search of

283
00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:38.240
work because they thought they were gonna scab. And again,

284
00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:40.400
they don't know the they couldn't possibly ever know the

285
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:43.880
reason why someone is crossing into Mexico or into the

286
00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:47.160
US from Mexico. But they believed that everyone crossing was

287
00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:50.000
gonna scab the current lemon strike that was going on,

288
00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:55.400
and they frequently used violins to stop people. There were

289
00:17:55.400 --> 00:18:00.519
incidents reported by the Yuma Daily Sun. Here's one headline.

290
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:02.920
A seventeen year old was beaten by the UfW patrol.

291
00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:06.079
Five cars were torched, a lemon picker was attacked with

292
00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:09.480
a blackjack. One twenty three year old Mexican was beaten

293
00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:12.160
with a hose and robbed by three men. Two men

294
00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.720
were beaten and their border crossing cards were stolen. They

295
00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:19.920
were allowed to cross with these border crossing cards. Another

296
00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:22.799
man was found hiding in a bush naked. He had

297
00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:26.359
been taken from the levengrove, beaten and dumped by the border.

298
00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:28.640
This is a UfW doing all this.

299
00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:29.440
Yeah.

300
00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:31.759
Two men were beaten, one of them had burns on

301
00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:35.079
the sole of his feet and they had been thrown

302
00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:39.359
in the river. The reports by Mexican newspapers were much worse.

303
00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:43.400
There were daily fire bombs placed under cars, Houses were

304
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:47.680
set on fire again, all allegedly being done by the

305
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:52.359
UfW wetline patrols. A month into these patrols there were

306
00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:58.559
thirty seven confirmed beatings. Latribuna released pictures of victims who

307
00:18:58.599 --> 00:19:03.079
were beaten by Sessa chavistas is what they were calling them.

308
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:06.640
It was uncovered that the UfW had bribed officials in

309
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.000
San Luis to let them do this, to not get

310
00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:11.960
them in trouble for doing all the things they were

311
00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:16.839
doing at the border and sometimes into Mexico. The Confederation

312
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.839
of Mexican Workers, who used to work with Manuel Chavis

313
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:23.640
the UfW and supported their efforts. They broke all ties

314
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.960
to the uf W over this. They called the wet

315
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:30.279
lines a campaign of terror and even cited that some

316
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:35.519
Mexicans had been drowned or castrated wow during WE patrolling.

317
00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:40.240
When he was told about these incidents, Sasa Chavis said

318
00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:42.200
it wasn't true and that people were just saying this

319
00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:46.839
to undermine the union. His closest supporters believed him, of course,

320
00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:51.559
despite an investigation in Mexico that proved that police had

321
00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:54.880
been bribed by the uf W. It was so bad

322
00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:59.279
that Bert Corona, another Chicano activists, stage of protests at

323
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:05.720
the Arizona Bord against the UfW wetlines. There's a recorded

324
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:09.440
conversation between Cesa and Manuel where he's telling Manuel that

325
00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:11.400
they can bribe police to cut the costs of the

326
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:14.759
wetlines and bring down the number of uf W members

327
00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:18.039
on patrol, proving that they were doing this. The Mexican

328
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:21.920
government even issued a warrant for Manuel Chavis's arrest, and

329
00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:26.559
after El Malcriado, the UfW newspaper put out a piece

330
00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:30.519
talking shit about the Mexican president, they actually had Manuel

331
00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:32.759
Javis arrested for three days. He was in a Mexican

332
00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:37.079
jail over all this, But through all this, Sasa Javis

333
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:41.039
continued to protect his cousin. When asked about all the

334
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.799
money that was being spent on the wet lines or

335
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:46.839
the checks that bounced, he told the rest of the

336
00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:50.759
board members that computers has screwed up the account, lying

337
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:54.200
and like making up reasons. Yeah, he blamed someone else

338
00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:59.079
for like this all the costs, which again we're going

339
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:00.920
to the wetlines. But he was like it was her

340
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:01.960
fault and fired her.

341
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:03.920
In another humiliating.

342
00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:09.000
Firing, he berated people trying to cut ten and twenty

343
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.640
dollars here and there. Meanwhile, Minor Chavis got a bulank

344
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:17.359
check for the wetlines. Damn. At one point the wetline

345
00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:21.839
operations were costing eighty thousand dollars a week. That is

346
00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:26.839
a lot yep. The board kept silent on all of this,

347
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.039
and says Sad Chavis completely supported all of his cousins' work.

348
00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.799
He even launched what was called or he called the

349
00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:38.319
Illegals campaign. He said Sisad Chaves. He said Nixon on

350
00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:41.400
board patrol weren't doing enough to keep illegals out, so

351
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.119
he would and so now the UfW was identifying illegal

352
00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:47.440
immigrants and forcing the government to deport them.

353
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:48.000
Wow.

354
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:53.039
Lise Eliza Hirsch Hirsh Eliza Hirsch, who was nineteen at

355
00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:55.720
the time but had grown up in the Union. Her

356
00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:59.119
parents had moved to Delano when she was twelve to

357
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.440
support the Union, but they had moved during the first

358
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:05.160
round of purchase that he had done. But she stayed

359
00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:08.599
like they were. Her parents were perched. Yeah, her parents

360
00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:12.720
were purged. They left uh Delano and she stayed living

361
00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:17.880
with the Chavis family. She was nineteen. This just feels

362
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:22.640
wrong knowing we know exactly she was pretty in charge

363
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:26.680
of this illegals campaign and she didn't like the idea,

364
00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:28.480
but she did was but she did what she was

365
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.519
told because she was a believer of Sessa Chavis and

366
00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:33.799
this was all she knew. She had been raised in

367
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:34.319
the Union.

368
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:34.599
Like.

369
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:40.200
She crafted a form and distributed it. This form was

370
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.279
called the Rapport on Illegal Farm Labor Activity. It had

371
00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:48.599
a spot for where a person's name would go, where

372
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:53.920
the closest Border Patrol office would go, the worker's home address,

373
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:57.960
the grower's name, so like the firm owner their name,

374
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:02.960
the names of those who had given this illegal and

375
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:06.559
I'm using illegal in quotation marks this illegal worker food,

376
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.039
transportation and housing. This is like the most right wing

377
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:16.480
thing you could ever Yes, and how they had crossed yeah, wow,

378
00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:20.599
and what they earned. The National Lawyer's Guild, who had

379
00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:23.759
previously supplied entrants to the union, refused to participate in

380
00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:26.400
this illegal campaign. It's like people had problems with this

381
00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:28.319
from the beginning as it was happening.

382
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:29.200
Mm hmm.

383
00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:31.759
This cost as such, I was to break all ties

384
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:35.119
with them and fire all the current interns. And he

385
00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:37.839
also like believed that people needed to work for free,

386
00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:40.359
like they couldn't be for the cause if and expect

387
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:44.200
a paycheck. This is a quote from the book that

388
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:46.119
it was my source for all of this, which is

389
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:51.759
called The Crusades of Sasa Chavis by Miriam Powell. So

390
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:55.880
Whereta supported the campaign, but suggested they changed the terminology

391
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.240
because some people found the words went back and illegal offensive.

392
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.279
She said, the people themselves aren't illegal, their action of

393
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:08.039
being in this country may be illegal. When she said this,

394
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:11.880
Chavis turned on where that angrily. No, a spade's a spade,

395
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:15.200
he said, you guys get these hang ups. Goddamn it,

396
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:17.960
how do we build a union? They're wets, you know,

397
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:22.839
they're wets and let's go after them and quote and

398
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:25.839
just like one more thing that really emphasizes how culty

399
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:30.680
all this was at some point since such I always

400
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.079
hurt his back and he believed that it was Oh,

401
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:38.319
he was also very into like alternative therapies, which we

402
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:40.759
talked about in those five episodes. We went in deep

403
00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:43.960
on how he got, like supporters of the union to

404
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:47.559
buy him very expensive like spas. Oh yeah, that they

405
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:51.000
had a place into Lapasse because he needed it. Things

406
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:55.079
like that LAPAs itself was paid for by a supporter

407
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:58.039
of the union who thought they were supporting like the

408
00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:01.240
union and the fight for workers right, and it was

409
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:03.920
like a Hollywood someone I don't remember their name, it's

410
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.200
in those episodes, but that's who paid for who bought lapass.

411
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:10.799
So yeah, one more thing to emphasize the culty elements

412
00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:13.599
in the w At some point, has such I always

413
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:16.119
hurt his back and he believed it was related to

414
00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:21.160
his diet. He blamed Mexican food for being so unhealthy

415
00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:25.640
and became strictly vegetarian. And also he could have nothing processed.

416
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:29.759
So Helen and the kids ate traditional Mexican food and

417
00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:32.039
he didn't, and so she had to make him like

418
00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:34.079
a separate meal every time, and he was very like,

419
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:37.640
very vocal about his diet and how it helped his back,

420
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:42.960
and so his most loyal followers adopted the same diet,

421
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:48.599
which included a carried juice regime. Yeah, that's that's cold

422
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:51.400
team regimen. I think it was to say, not regime,

423
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:53.000
probably carry juice regimen.

424
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:55.039
Yeah.

425
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:57.039
He would say things like I wouldn't eat my dog,

426
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.319
and cows are just like them. And this made him

427
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.240
or this cemented his good person image that the followers

428
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:06.960
had of him, and others were like, just stop, like

429
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:09.839
what are you doing? Stop like Larry, Larry couldn't stand this,

430
00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:12.480
like this kind of shit that he did to make

431
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:16.079
himself look holier than that. But this is what abusers do, right,

432
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:23.680
They cultivate these images as community leaders, as people fighting

433
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:29.799
for others rights, so that when allegations and disclosures come out,

434
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:31.759
people would be like, oh, they would never do that,

435
00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:34.559
you know, like they purposely cultivate these images.

436
00:26:35.319 --> 00:26:35.839
Exactly.

437
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.720
During a meeting with some teamsters, one union leader told

438
00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:42.720
them to just act like a union leader and not

439
00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:47.519
a saint, saying, quote, get upop your fucking knees. Let's

440
00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:49.920
not make it a cause, let's make it a fucking union.

441
00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:51.880
We'll buy unie pads if you want to fight a

442
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:55.640
holy war and quote. They were tired of his shit,

443
00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:01.000
and poor Larry, Larry was so tired of his shit,

444
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:07.440
saysar Chavis started another purge of members that became known

445
00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:11.160
as the Monday Night Massacre because that's how many people

446
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:16.119
were kicked out. This was April fourth, nineteen seventy seven.

447
00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:22.079
After kicking these members out in this specific purge, this

448
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:25.440
was all at LAPAs, and these people were living at LAPAs.

449
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:29.279
He kicked them out of LAPAs where they lived. He

450
00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:31.960
refused to let them use the phone, and they had

451
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.480
no way to contact anyone for help after they were

452
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:38.680
kicked out like this was on purpose. Yeah, it was

453
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:43.759
after this specific purging that the union entered a new chapter, saysar.

454
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:47.039
Chavis told the board the union needed drastic change and

455
00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:49.839
that they needed to be a movement or a union,

456
00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:54.839
but not both. And in February nineteen seventy seven, he

457
00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:59.599
called the board meeting at one of Synanon's compounds. And

458
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:04.279
for those that don't know, Synanon is a cult and

459
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:08.839
it was also the predecessor. It started at one of

460
00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:12.599
the first were they called teen trouble teens. Trouble teen.

461
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:16.039
It basically pioneered the trouble teen industry.

462
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:19.839
And one of the most vile schools ever Elon.

463
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:22.319
E. L a n.

464
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:28.000
Not Elon Musk, but Elon the Elon School. Yeah, it's

465
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:31.160
unclear to me exactly how Sasad Tavis and Charles Dietrich,

466
00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:36.839
the leader of Synernon, became friends. But the cult, it

467
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:42.079
was a cult before it was before the cult became

468
00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:44.880
known as a cult, like before it was public. They

469
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:49.119
started out like as a medical organization, supposedly like a

470
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:54.799
healthcare organization, and Synnon had clinics throughout California, and one

471
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.000
of the clinics was very close to all the UfW

472
00:28:58.359 --> 00:29:01.559
workers and members and they would go to the Synnon

473
00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:05.240
clinic for help. And so maybe through there it was

474
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:08.559
that Tessa Travis and Charles Ddrich became connected. I honestly

475
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:13.400
couldn't find how they came to know each other. But yeah,

476
00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:15.880
we already described Synernon a little bit. But yes, it's

477
00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:21.319
a cult. They originally began as Tender Loving Care and

478
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.720
it was a religious movement founded in nineteen fifty eight

479
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:29.920
by Charles E. Chuck Diedrich Senior in Santa Monica, California.

480
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:35.000
Originally established as a drug rehabilitation program, Cynnon developed into

481
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:39.200
an alternate community centered on group truth telling sessions that

482
00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:43.559
became known as the Synonyon Game, a form of attack

483
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:48.880
therapy Cynernon was. By the time it was all public

484
00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:50.480
and known, Cinnanon was said to be one of the

485
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:55.079
most dangerous and violin goals America had ever seen. Synnon

486
00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:58.200
disbanded in nineteen ninety one after several members were convicted

487
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:02.559
of offenses including financial miss deeds, evidence tamporing, terrorism, and

488
00:30:02.599 --> 00:30:07.400
attempted murder. And so it's very possible that the UfW

489
00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:09.799
members that were just going to clinic, no, it was

490
00:30:09.799 --> 00:30:14.160
a cult. Yeah. The only one who would have been

491
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:18.960
more aware of how controlled Synanon was would be Sasa Chavis,

492
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:24.799
who kept in touch with the leader, Charles Diedrich. He

493
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:28.319
looked up to him. He felt that Chuck was able

494
00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:31.920
to take Synonyon to the next level, something he aspired

495
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:35.440
to do with the UfW. A cult was the next level.

496
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:39.440
He admired his cult leadership. Yeah.

497
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:48.680
Yeah. Charles told Cesar that in order for him to

498
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:50.960
do the same, he needed to weed out those who

499
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:54.519
resist change. And he told them that one thing was

500
00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:58.319
instrumental to cynern On and to maintain an order in

501
00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:01.319
the cult. This never said the word cold, but in

502
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:04.480
Synon maintaining order in syn and On. And that thing

503
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:10.200
was the game. And the game was presented as group therapy.

504
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:15.400
In it, the players all accused one another of their wrongdoings,

505
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:18.759
and it would often be exaggerated. One person was called

506
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:22.000
out and then others would join. The person escaped this

507
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:28.079
yelling being by accusing someone else. Then everyone would gang

508
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:31.960
up on that person. Supposedly it was to correct faults

509
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:36.920
and miscommunications, but it was really another a humiliation ritual. Yeah,

510
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:39.400
and we already mentioned this, but I had it written

511
00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:41.079
down here in my notes. But if you know anything

512
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:43.559
about the trouble team industry, then you've probably heard about

513
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:46.599
the Elon school which used the game and their abuse.

514
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:50.799
And yes, they learned it from Synnon. And so Sister

515
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:55.680
Chavis took the board of the UfW to the newest

516
00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:59.319
Synonym compound. They had not been debriefed on what was

517
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:03.880
about to happen. Only Charles Ddrich and the Synanon members knew.

518
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:09.440
The board members they had different plans. They Marshall Gantz,

519
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:12.400
who we talked more about him in the five episodes.

520
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:14.160
Any story asn't known, but he was one of the

521
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:18.160
early early members of the UfW. He wanted to talk

522
00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:22.680
about focusing on vegetable workers in Salinas and the Imperial Valley.

523
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:27.000
Elisel Medina wanted to talk about the vineyards in Oxnard.

524
00:32:27.319 --> 00:32:29.640
Like you got the idea. They thought they were gonna

525
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:33.759
it was gonna be a regular meeting once they all gathered.

526
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:37.519
They were then confused when Sesar Chavis said he wasn't

527
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:41.920
there to talk about elections, contracts, nothing. They weren't there

528
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:44.599
to talk about the union's philosophy. They were going to

529
00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:47.119
learn from the Synanon family and they were going to

530
00:32:47.240 --> 00:32:50.960
learn the game. He told them that it was time

531
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:53.640
to decide were they a movement or were they a union,

532
00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:56.880
because they needed to decide if they would run on

533
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:00.000
volunteer work as a movement or pay wages as a union.

534
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.680
But they couldn't afford it. He wanted people to work

535
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:07.359
for free. Yeah, and some people like, I don't know

536
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:11.160
what does revere mean? Like does that like celebrate Yeah, yeah,

537
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:15.079
kind of okay, some people Revere that says Chivis was

538
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:19.799
such a humble man who did all this for free,

539
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:23.119
basically for lowest costs possible, because he wanted to appear

540
00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:26.000
like a murder Yeah, because he didn't want to pay anyone.

541
00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:31.039
Like it wasn't because it wasn't because he cared.

542
00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:31.799
Yeah.

543
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.759
And so here he told them like, with what's it

544
00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:39.400
going to be or with a movement who has volunteers

545
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:44.480
or are we a union who pays wages and members?

546
00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:47.960
Like uh Cohen who was another longtime member of the

547
00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:52.559
UfW and Richard Chavis, which is his brother. They were like,

548
00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:55.240
we need to pay people, come on, yeah, and says

549
00:33:55.480 --> 00:33:59.359
Chavis was completely opposed. He wouldn't hear it. He told

550
00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:01.680
him if they didn't get their shit together and become

551
00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:05.279
a movement, he would now be part of it. And

552
00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:07.079
then he told them he was going to bring the

553
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:09.519
game back to Lapasse and so they needed to learn

554
00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:11.920
it and they would watch the Synanon members do the

555
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:15.199
game and then they were invited to join. And so

556
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:17.840
when they were invited to join and they had to

557
00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:19.840
like yell at each other, his brother was like what

558
00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:22.119
the fuck and walked out. He's like this is no

559
00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:27.760
for me. Yeah, yeah, like I can't do this. After

560
00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:31.199
the game, Charles spent two hours explaining how he scored

561
00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:34.239
everyone during the game and that he would train the

562
00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:39.360
twelve UfW members, says Chavez said that everyone who moved

563
00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:42.960
into Lapasse after March first, nineteen seventy seven had to

564
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:46.000
participate in the game. None of the members liked it,

565
00:34:46.039 --> 00:34:50.079
but no one objected to it except Richard Chavis. After

566
00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:53.119
they left the Synnon compound, Chaves wrote a letter to

567
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:56.480
Charles ddrich about how he deeply admired him and what

568
00:34:56.559 --> 00:35:01.599
he was doing with Synanon the cult. Charles even proposed

569
00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:05.400
opening a Synanon run compound for the US Wow, which

570
00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:09.280
it didn't actually happen, but he proposed it the game

571
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:12.679
though that did happen at LAPAs, since Javis handpicked the

572
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:15.320
eleven that would be trained in the game, and he

573
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:18.320
chose purposely who he thought was the most loyal, who

574
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.519
he could groom into becoming more loyal and more faithful.

575
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:26.079
Among them was his own son, Paul Chavis, his son

576
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.559
in law, his niece, Richard Javis's daughter, one of the

577
00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:35.000
rodes Werta's kids, and during the first game at LAPAs,

578
00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:39.599
they gained up on Juaquin Murhiya, who is the brother

579
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:43.880
of one of these we'll get into the allegations, but

580
00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:47.400
he's the brother of Anna Murhiya. So they gained up

581
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:50.559
on Jaquin Murhia, who had just gotten into college, and

582
00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:53.480
this is from the book about when they gained up

583
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:57.320
on him during the game. After this first session, more

584
00:35:57.360 --> 00:35:59.960
were trained and there were different games every weekend.

585
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:00.960
It got to the.

586
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:03.760
Point where there was a wait list for twelve people, sorry,

587
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:06.079
a weight list for people, and there were different games

588
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:09.119
happening at the same time from nine to twelve on Sundays,

589
00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:13.039
the game started and we got on him, Chavis recounted

590
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.679
to the executive board. Boy did he open up. He

591
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.920
broke down and cried. Juaquin quit school and went to

592
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:23.400
work full time in the UfW accounting department. It works

593
00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:28.239
real nice, Chavis said. Matt Ran cited Joaquin's desicion approvingly

594
00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:31.199
as testimony to the power of the thoughts and feelings

595
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:34.360
of their peers when expressed in the game. So they

596
00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:38.440
were like, yeah, the game works. But yeah, they coerced

597
00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:41.800
Juaquin with he had to quitting college and working for

598
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:46.079
the DFW basically for free. So then board meetings started

599
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:50.519
to get more and more tense, taking the tone of

600
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:52.480
the game on. It wasn't the game, it was a

601
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:54.800
board meeting, but the board meetings became like the game.

602
00:36:55.719 --> 00:36:58.239
During every meeting there was a fight between Susan Chavis

603
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.039
and Dolores Berda Staraty wanting to quit.

604
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:02.280
Says O.

605
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:06.039
Chavis talked less about farm workers and was more preoccupied

606
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:09.840
with the game who he could put in the game

607
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:13.079
to find out something about them, like that was his preoccupation,

608
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:17.199
not the farm workers. He would also talk about how

609
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:19.760
he didn't trust farm workers that meeting because they only

610
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:22.719
cared at meetings because they only cared about money, which

611
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.239
like this was the whole point for them to fight

612
00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:28.920
for livable wages. Yeah, for their rights. You're supposed to

613
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:34.280
be like a work union, right, But because people and

614
00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:38.280
all of my comments always say, well he cared about

615
00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:40.920
the farm workers, he didn't.

616
00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:41.880
No, he didn't.

617
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.960
No. He I think maybe in the beginning he did,

618
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.559
but the power got to him by the end, he didn't.

619
00:37:49.239 --> 00:37:54.320
This is evidence of that. He would openly talk about

620
00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:57.039
how he didn't trust farm workers, yeah, because they only

621
00:37:57.079 --> 00:38:00.800
cared about money, And then he would go in public

622
00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:03.639
at all these events and talk about how important farm

623
00:38:03.639 --> 00:38:05.840
workers were and how they were the movement.

624
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:07.880
Yeah.

625
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:13.320
He at some point he would in these meetings talk

626
00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:16.519
about how he didn't want the movement to be about

627
00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:20.320
farm workers anymore, which was the whole point of the

628
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:26.280
UfW right United farm Workers. It's in the name, bitch, Yeah,

629
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:30.840
And he wanted it to be a religious movement, in

630
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:32.119
other words.

631
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:36.559
His cult, his own personal cult. Yeah.

632
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.280
And so at first that game was only played like

633
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:42.119
once on Sundays, then they blocked out half of Sunday

634
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:44.880
for the game. Then they added on the game on

635
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:50.400
Wednesday evenings. Hundreds were participating, and Sayesa Javis kept a

636
00:38:50.440 --> 00:38:54.920
list of the few dozen who still refused, which yeah,

637
00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:58.719
which included Richard Chavis, and says Sa Chavis to tell

638
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:01.440
Richard like, aren't you part of the community. This is

639
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:04.880
part of the community. And Richard was like, I don't

640
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:08.480
want this. And Savis would start naming communities to say

641
00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:10.360
like you need to get in line because it is

642
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:14.760
this is a community, and he would name other cults.

643
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:18.840
Oh my god, he's telling her himself.

644
00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:21.719
Yeah. Yeah.

645
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:25.840
Jim Drake, another very very long time us W supporter

646
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.920
and member from like the beginning, he would tell to

647
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.920
such Ibs that it scares him. When he started mentioning

648
00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:37.119
all those losers, meaning other cult leaders. Yeah, yeah, including

649
00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:39.480
center On. He's like, this scares me. Why are you

650
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:47.840
talking about the Basically that was him, Yeah, and that

651
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:53.800
was a quote from Yeah. So many were worrying about

652
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:57.360
to such Javis. But those two voice concerns were kicked out,

653
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:00.800
and so the most loyal support or as they stayed

654
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.280
and this kept on happening, and then it got worse

655
00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:06.800
in nineteen seventy seven. In the summer of nineteen seventy seven,

656
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:09.280
says such I was was invited to the Philippines by

657
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:16.000
Ferdinand Marcos. A dictator. Yeah, a straight up dictator. Like

658
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:19.000
there's no way, there's no ifs and or butts about it.

659
00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:23.880
This was a dictator, yes, And so the UfW was

660
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:30.840
like always losing Filipino workers. One person had advised him

661
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:32.960
to make this trip and that he would arrange everything,

662
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:36.440
and the board told him, like this was a bad idea.

663
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:39.440
It was already known that the Marcus regime was involved

664
00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:42.119
in human rights violations, but says such I was one anyway,

665
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.880
and when he returned, says such I was praised the

666
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:49.920
Marcos regime. He was amazed by Marshall law, and he

667
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:57.159
applauded the president. He would love Bugle and Trump. Yeah,

668
00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:02.400
when there was rightfully so criticism about this, says her,

669
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:03.840
Chavis doubled down.

670
00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:05.360
Of course, he didn't.

671
00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:08.679
During a meeting with hundreds of people, he announced that

672
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:12.480
he didn't praise martial law, but he supported the president.

673
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:17.719
But it's like that's the same thing. And then he

674
00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:19.960
doubled down more and said that he didn't see any

675
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:24.000
human rights violated of courtured or abuse when he was there.

676
00:41:25.239 --> 00:41:29.039
When the attention for the shit he said was too negative,

677
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:32.320
he retreated into LAPAs. That's what Lapasse was for his

678
00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:44.519
isolated retreatment place. It got so bad that people who

679
00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:47.199
had been supportive of him since the beginning were beginning

680
00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:50.760
to resign. And there's like, there's so many names, over

681
00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:56.159
half the lawyers, Elisel Medina, even Helen Chaves. His wife

682
00:41:56.239 --> 00:42:00.320
was over it. She moved out of Lapass for many reasons,

683
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:03.480
but one of them was Asa said Chavis was a

684
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:06.920
serial cheater. One day she was filling in for his

685
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:09.239
secretary and she found a love letter written to Sasa

686
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:12.199
Chavis by an eighteen year old. Oh my god, he

687
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:15.719
was like almost fifty at this point. Yeah, and when

688
00:42:16.280 --> 00:42:18.719
I told you this and he started asn't known we

689
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:22.920
were like she was eighteen, he was forty something, almost fifty.

690
00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:27.320
He's the leader of the union. She's a farm worker.

691
00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:30.760
The power and balance is already like so obvious. But

692
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:34.239
if she was eighteen, like, who's to say there wasn't

693
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:39.239
any younger survivors of his and look and like how

694
00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:40.239
soon that started?

695
00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:43.559
Yeah, but yeah, I mean.

696
00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:47.840
Yeah, when Helen Chavis saw this letter by an eighteen

697
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:50.320
year old, she had asked the secretary if there had

698
00:42:50.360 --> 00:42:54.199
been other letters, but the secretary said nothing because they

699
00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:57.519
all kept his secrets. Yeah, this is how this is

700
00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:01.079
the environment, the atmosphere, he said. And you'd think that

701
00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:03.519
the mass quitting would be a wake up call, but

702
00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:08.599
Sasa Chavis's cult like behavior only worsened. He even in

703
00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:10.760
this point, like in this time period, took a six

704
00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:14.119
day mind control class in la and then announced that

705
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:15.760
he could heal people with his hands.

706
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:22.360
It's like, I don't know how you get to that point.

707
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:30.639
Yeah, and this stuff has all been public, but like

708
00:43:31.159 --> 00:43:34.719
you had to look for it. Yeah, the stuff like

709
00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:39.079
that we just shared. But now these allegations that are

710
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:42.400
worse have become super public. There's like no hiding how

711
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:47.519
terrible Tessa Chavis is. And before I share the new allegations,

712
00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:49.480
I did want to share a story that I saw

713
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:51.760
from someone that Carlon and I both follow. It was

714
00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:56.400
a story on their Instagram. She is by Waves on Instagram,

715
00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:59.960
but she wrote quote seeing too many people immense specific

716
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:04.119
gleefully sharing Chavist allegations and saying shit like about time.

717
00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:09.000
Finally he's canceled, citing Chavis's anti immigration history, how he

718
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:12.639
solved out fellow Filipino farm workers, et cetera. And while

719
00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:15.039
that is all true, I'm going to need y'all to stop.

720
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:18.280
I see this every time a man, especially a powerful,

721
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:21.159
rich and well known man, is outed as an abuser,

722
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:25.039
people using survivors as a gotcha to validate their own

723
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:30.039
public grievances with an abuser. Survivors pain and trauma minimized

724
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:34.480
and treated as entertainment and collateral damage. Survivors don't exist

725
00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:37.400
to make men feel better about not being like other men.

726
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:39.840
If the first thing out of your mouth when stories

727
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:42.880
of abuse come to light isn't acknology and century and survivors,

728
00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:47.760
you're making light of abuse and perpetuating rape culture for GoF. Okay,

729
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:49.760
I'm so glad you shared that, because that was another

730
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:52.280
thing I had didn't say in the beginning of the episode,

731
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:56.239
but I wanted to mention that it's basically just to

732
00:44:56.320 --> 00:45:00.880
echo what she said that yeah, too many times. And

733
00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:04.719
it's the same issue I have with the Epstein Files, right,

734
00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:10.719
like people are centering all the crazy conspiracies they're making

735
00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:14.360
up and all the stuff, and not centering the survivors,

736
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:18.920
and like it doesn't matter, Like we're you know, context

737
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:23.000
about Desir travist just so that people know about what

738
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:27.079
else was out there before these allegations came out. But

739
00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:30.519
it's not to say, oh, see, we were right, We're vindicated.

740
00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:35.679
Like we all grew up learning about Seth Javis and

741
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:39.320
viewing him as a hero, and everyone in their own

742
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:42.280
at different times learned the reality about him, right, So

743
00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:45.199
it's not I think a time for us to be like, see,

744
00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:47.639
we were right. We even hater since day one, you know,

745
00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:50.960
Like that's not the point of this, Like we should

746
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:57.000
be centering survivors and and we should be glad that

747
00:45:57.039 --> 00:45:58.679
they came out and they shared their stories, you know

748
00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:00.679
what I mean, Like it doesn't matter. It doesn't take

749
00:46:00.679 --> 00:46:04.000
away from the movement. If anything, it goes to show

750
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:08.800
that we should not be putting these men on pedestals ever, right,

751
00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:13.440
Like the face of the movement should have never been

752
00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:16.840
one person. Yeah. And when you let it be one person,

753
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:20.079
then especially a man like that, power gets to their head.

754
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:26.039
They already have the power of machismo and pittriarchy. Imagine, yeah,

755
00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:29.079
then imagine me abused as a hero like all that

756
00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:35.400
much more power to take advantage of girls and women, right, exactly, exactly,

757
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:40.559
And so The New York Times released their investigation today

758
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:43.920
at the Timber Recording March eighteen, twenty twenty six. They

759
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:47.239
had been working on this since twenty twenty one, damn

760
00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:53.599
yeah years. The reporters were Many Fernandez and Sarah Hurtz.

761
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:56.920
They interviewed several women who for the first time told

762
00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:02.960
their stories. But yesterday before this came out, so March seventeenth,

763
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:05.440
do the UfW announced that they were canceling to such

764
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:11.639
Chavs Day celebrations due to troubling allegations and like nobody

765
00:47:11.719 --> 00:47:15.440
knew what these were, for the story wouldn't come out, Yeah,

766
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:19.360
And so they canceled preemptively these celebrations, and then The

767
00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:25.559
New York Times dropped this. So Anna Murhia and Debra Rojas,

768
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:29.039
they're both sixty six now, but they were but when

769
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:32.280
they were teens, they were both abused by Sasa Chavis.

770
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:36.119
He abused them both for years from nineteen seventy two

771
00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:40.639
to nineteen seventy seven. Both of them were part of

772
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:44.400
the families who had moved to La Pass to the compound.

773
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:47.679
Both had known so Such Chavis since the since they

774
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:52.960
were children, both had marched alongside him. The reporters also

775
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:56.320
interviewed Doloresuerta, who told them in an interview for the

776
00:47:56.360 --> 00:48:00.079
first time ever she made this public that he he

777
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:04.039
sexually assaulted her too, and that resulted in pregnancies.

778
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:06.800
Just a lot.

779
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:11.639
It is, it is she held that secret for sixty years.

780
00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:14.320
Wait can we share her statement?

781
00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:17.960
I have it in here later. Oh okay, okay, yeah.

782
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:22.719
Anam Murhia and Debra Rojas also held their secrets for years,

783
00:48:23.320 --> 00:48:27.440
but this was like all too much for specifically Anna

784
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:30.559
when she learned that a street very close to her

785
00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:34.360
home Bakersfield was in the process of being renamed after

786
00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:37.400
her abuser, and they both went on to tell The

787
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:39.880
New York Times that if he felt like a shadow,

788
00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:44.039
that they couldn't escape. I can only imagine because those

789
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:46.920
of us who had no personal experience with this man

790
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:50.480
but know about how horrible he was, felt like that too.

791
00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:52.119
You know what I mean, like, oh my god, not

792
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:55.960
fucking this day again or not, you know, him being

793
00:48:56.000 --> 00:48:56.719
celebrated again.

794
00:48:56.840 --> 00:48:59.199
Imagine being abused by him and seeing him.

795
00:48:59.079 --> 00:49:05.559
Everywhere, Yeah, murals, streets, same as for him, schools, schools, parks,

796
00:49:05.800 --> 00:49:11.039
mm hmm. For Anna, the abuse began when she was thirteen,

797
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:13.760
Oh my god, but the grooming had been going on

798
00:49:13.880 --> 00:49:17.159
for a while by then, back to when she was

799
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:21.519
eight or nine. Her family moved to the compound Lapasse

800
00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:23.920
in nineteen seventy one, and this is when, says her,

801
00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:27.400
Chavis started asking Anna for help in random little things,

802
00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:31.960
dictating letters or to work the phone at the compound's

803
00:49:31.960 --> 00:49:36.519
phone switchboard. This was something that made her proud, like, oh,

804
00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:40.880
she's helping in the movement, she's helping him, and with

805
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:43.639
his status among the UfW like, of course, it made

806
00:49:43.639 --> 00:49:47.719
her proud. And then so this was around from like

807
00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:51.119
eleven to twelve is when she was doing this extra

808
00:49:51.159 --> 00:49:53.519
little work here and then having like one on one

809
00:49:53.559 --> 00:49:56.440
times with is R. Chavis under the guise of doing

810
00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:59.760
this work. But when she was thirteen, he began to

811
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:05.199
her into his office and I believe we mentioned this

812
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:07.679
in the five episodes we did in Estonia as a

813
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:12.119
known but he was obsessed with alternate healing therapies and

814
00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:16.599
so this, this alternative medicine was like another tool in

815
00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:20.360
his fuming because he would have Anna laid down either

816
00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:23.280
on his desk or the yoga mat, and then began

817
00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:27.079
to show her different pressure points. And then this escalated.

818
00:50:27.239 --> 00:50:31.239
It's like any excuse to well, it'screw me yeah, yeah, yeah,

819
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:38.239
and like trigger content warning for a little bit like

820
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:41.400
of the I'm not going into details details, but this

821
00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:46.119
is disturbing, so content warning for rape. But the first

822
00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:49.480
time that this went from showing her a little pressure points,

823
00:50:49.519 --> 00:50:53.159
like little touching here and there. The first time it escalated,

824
00:50:53.440 --> 00:50:56.079
he had called her into that same office that she

825
00:50:56.280 --> 00:50:59.760
had been in many different occasions, but this time when

826
00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:02.599
he her onto the yoga mat, he kissed her and

827
00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:07.960
then he pulled her pants down. After he was done,

828
00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:11.280
he told her not to tell anyone because everyone else

829
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:16.519
would get jealous. And this went out for years, he

830
00:51:16.599 --> 00:51:19.679
took her on tour with him to different marches and events.

831
00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:23.320
There's one really famous picture from the one thousand Mile

832
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:26.599
March that happened in the summer of nineteen seventy five.

833
00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:29.920
In this picture, Anna is marching nextus as her Javis.

834
00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:36.519
By this point she was fifteen, and it was after

835
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:38.760
this march that she had walked into the kitchen and

836
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:46.159
saw him kissing another woman, and she felt betrayed. She

837
00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:49.239
was like actively being abused by him, and enter the

838
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:52.480
guise of she was the only one, which like teens,

839
00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:54.280
like no one has when there's someone is being abused.

840
00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:57.480
They don't have the language to understand what's happening, you know,

841
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:01.000
much less a teenager who probably has doesn't have any

842
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:04.760
experience in a relationship. And this is not a relationship, mind, dude,

843
00:52:04.760 --> 00:52:07.480
This is like abuse. But this is the only example

844
00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:10.159
of something like that she had, so of course she

845
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:14.280
feels that way. Yeah, yeah, And so after this moment

846
00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:17.920
he sought her out less and less until he stopped completely.

847
00:52:18.559 --> 00:52:21.480
And about this, she told The New York Times quote,

848
00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:24.760
I felt very alone. I had zero support end quote.

849
00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:29.960
She left LAPAs at nineteen and fell into heroin addiction.

850
00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:34.400
She returned to Lapaz, hoping that such Avis could help her,

851
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:38.079
but when she returned, he called her into the office

852
00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:40.320
in a room full of men and told her she

853
00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:42.639
was bringing drugs into the community and that she needed

854
00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:47.000
to leave. And like, this is a he could have

855
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:49.400
told her by herself, no, no, because he needed to

856
00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:52.920
humiliate her as well. Exactly, this is how the purgings

857
00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:55.079
and the kicking people out. It was always done this way.

858
00:52:56.239 --> 00:52:56.679
Yeah.

859
00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:59.840
When a family member asked her what happened, she told

860
00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:03.639
family member, quote, he doesn't need me anymore. I'm grown up.

861
00:53:03.800 --> 00:53:05.039
He told me to get out.

862
00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:08.679
End quote. So sad. Yeah.

863
00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:12.920
For years she felt like she would have been blamed

864
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:17.880
for her abuse, and she told no one, though she

865
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:20.559
did tell a few family members in the nineteen eighties,

866
00:53:20.719 --> 00:53:22.840
like three or four different family members from what I

867
00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:26.679
read in the New York Times article, but they couldn't

868
00:53:26.719 --> 00:53:31.519
get them to like talk more about this. The other

869
00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:33.719
person she did confide in who she knew she could

870
00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:39.039
trust was de Drocas. Debra's family moved to La pass

871
00:53:39.079 --> 00:53:42.639
in nineteen seventy two when she was twelve, and in

872
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:45.800
that same year, says her job as asked her into

873
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:50.199
his office locked the door, asked her about school and books,

874
00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:54.000
and when she was admiring his bookshelves, he touched her

875
00:53:54.039 --> 00:53:59.280
for the first time. She was shocked and confused. That

876
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:02.800
was their first encounter, but like Anna, it went on

877
00:54:02.920 --> 00:54:06.800
for years. He would call her house talk about Union

878
00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:09.800
stuff with her dad and then he would ask her

879
00:54:09.880 --> 00:54:12.920
dad to put her on the phone and he then

880
00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:16.760
invited her also to the one thousand mile March. At

881
00:54:16.760 --> 00:54:19.639
this point she was fifteen. Her parents were skeptical about

882
00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:23.360
letting her go, but said such Jabas insisted that Deborah

883
00:54:23.360 --> 00:54:26.320
would be safe, and of course he was this revered

884
00:54:26.719 --> 00:54:29.800
leader among them, Like they were going.

885
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:31.440
To trust him. Yeah.

886
00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:36.079
He called and called and called as telling them to

887
00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:39.239
let her go to the march. And because of that

888
00:54:39.320 --> 00:54:41.519
culture he had created within the uf W, because of

889
00:54:41.559 --> 00:54:45.039
his status within the uf W, her parents just wanted

890
00:54:45.079 --> 00:54:46.880
to be on his good side. They thought he was

891
00:54:46.920 --> 00:54:49.920
a good person. Yeah, and they said yes, they loved

892
00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:53.400
sasuch Javis. They admired such Javis. Everyone did.

893
00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:59.039
So they believed that their daughter would be safe. So

894
00:54:59.079 --> 00:54:59.480
she went.

895
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:04.239
And during that march in August, he like randomly told her,

896
00:55:05.119 --> 00:55:07.079
you're going home for a week, and she was like

897
00:55:07.159 --> 00:55:10.960
sad and confused. She thought she was in trouble, and

898
00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:13.199
when she was waiting at the bus stop to go

899
00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:17.079
back home for a week, he showed up in a

900
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:21.440
car with one of his bodyguards to pick her up,

901
00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:24.519
and they drove to a motel on Highway ninety nine,

902
00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:30.320
and in this motel was the first time he raped her. Hello, Hello,

903
00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:33.079
this is Christina from the future. There's one thing I

904
00:55:33.079 --> 00:55:38.320
forgot to mention here, but when this happened, he had

905
00:55:38.440 --> 00:55:41.639
a gun on him that she saw him place on

906
00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:45.920
the dresser before the assault, and that just adds another

907
00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:49.639
level of coercion that that was already there, right, and

908
00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:52.920
another thing to fear when I just wanted to make

909
00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:55.679
sure that everyone had that context and to not leave

910
00:55:55.719 --> 00:56:00.519
it out as well. Okay, back to the episode. Oh

911
00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:02.639
my god, So he made her feel like he was

912
00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:04.800
like abandoning her and making her go home, then picked

913
00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:11.000
her up in the state of emotional I don't know, yeah, despair,

914
00:56:12.039 --> 00:56:18.400
and then took advantage of her. Yeah, And he was

915
00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:20.199
with one of his bodyguards when he picked her up,

916
00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:24.559
So that's at least one other person that knew that

917
00:56:24.639 --> 00:56:29.920
knew exactly after this though, after this moment and after

918
00:56:29.960 --> 00:56:32.960
the march was over, he grew more and more distant

919
00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:36.920
and told her. Deborah told Debra that he needed to

920
00:56:36.920 --> 00:56:42.760
go back to his wife, and like Anna, Deborah told

921
00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:46.000
a very few select family members about what happened to her,

922
00:56:46.280 --> 00:56:50.239
but not until the nineteen nineties. Another daughter of a

923
00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:54.400
union member also came forward, Esmerada Lopez, and this is

924
00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:57.360
years after Debra and Anna's.

925
00:56:56.880 --> 00:56:57.960
Abuse had taken place.

926
00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:03.440
At LAPAs eighty eight, Esmeerda was selected to go on

927
00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:07.039
and out of state speaking tour in Michigan with Sasa Chabas.

928
00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:12.400
After the event, they drove to his camper that was

929
00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:16.199
attached to a pickup truck and there they chatted and

930
00:57:16.400 --> 00:57:19.599
talked about the event. They were sitting on the bed

931
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:23.639
in the camper. When they were talking, while sitting on

932
00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:26.199
the bed, he pointed to a street sign that was

933
00:57:26.280 --> 00:57:30.519
named after him outside and told Esmerada that if she

934
00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:33.000
slept with him, something could be named after her. Oh

935
00:57:33.079 --> 00:57:37.599
my god, she was nineteen and he was sixty one.

936
00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:39.360
Oh my god.

937
00:57:39.639 --> 00:57:42.280
She was shaken and she rebuffed him, and after that

938
00:57:42.400 --> 00:57:45.199
he didn't say anything, and she called her mom right

939
00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:47.599
away and told her that she needed to come home.

940
00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:50.519
When her mom asked what happened. She told her mom

941
00:57:50.719 --> 00:57:53.000
quote says Sar Chabas.

942
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:53.519
Is just a man.

943
00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:57.960
End quote, Oh my god, the chils I just got

944
00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:01.559
because that's literally that's how I feel about this whole thing.

945
00:58:02.559 --> 00:58:02.840
Yeah.

946
00:58:03.599 --> 00:58:10.519
Yeah, Her mom, Cynthia Bell, completely understood when her daughter said,

947
00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:14.239
Sesar Javis is just a man. Her mom is seventy

948
00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:18.920
five now, and she recalls sexual advances from Cesar Javis

949
00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:21.880
when she was in her early twenties in the nineteen seventies.

950
00:58:22.159 --> 00:58:23.079
Oh my god.

951
00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:27.559
They were dancing at some event, like a union event,

952
00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:31.400
and he told her quote, I see you sometimes like

953
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:33.880
one of my daughters, but then I get these other feelings.

954
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:34.519
End quote.

955
00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:40.679
And ten months after Esmeralda rebuffed him, she was fired

956
00:58:40.719 --> 00:58:45.079
from her job at the Union health care clinic. And

957
00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:49.679
then today also so the New York Times mentioned Dolores

958
00:58:49.719 --> 00:58:53.599
Wortha saying that she was also assaulted. And there's like

959
00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:55.840
a little bit of details in the New York Times

960
00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:58.800
article along with the other three accounts. But then do

961
00:58:58.840 --> 00:59:01.880
Lotus Werta released her own statement, which we will read.

962
00:59:02.639 --> 00:59:05.079
I am nearly ninety six years old and for the

963
00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:08.360
last sixty years have kept a secret because I believe

964
00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:11.360
that exposing the truth would hurt the farm worker movement.

965
00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:14.480
I have spent my entire life fighting for I have

966
00:59:14.599 --> 00:59:17.760
encouraged people to always use their voice. Following the New

967
00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:22.079
York Times multi year investigation into sexual misconduct by Soasar Chavis,

968
00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:24.480
I can no longer stay silent and must share my

969
00:59:24.519 --> 00:59:28.039
own experiences. As a young mother in the nineteen sixties,

970
00:59:28.119 --> 00:59:32.199
I experienced two separate sexual encounters with Sessad. The first time,

971
00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:34.920
I was manipulated and pressured into having sex with him,

972
00:59:35.320 --> 00:59:37.719
and I didn't feel I could say no because he

973
00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:40.599
was someone I admired, my boss and the leader of

974
00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:43.360
the movement. I had already devoted years of my life too.

975
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:47.320
The second time, I was forced against my will and

976
00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:50.960
in an environment where I felt trapped. I had experienced

977
00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:54.679
abuse and sexual violence before, and I convinced myself these

978
00:59:54.679 --> 00:59:57.360
were incidents that I had to endure alone and in secret.

979
00:59:58.039 --> 01:00:01.920
Both sexual encounters we was Sasad le to pregnancies. I

980
01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:04.880
chose to keep my pregnancies secret, and after the children

981
01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:07.400
were born, I arranged for them to be raised by

982
01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:11.559
other families that could give them stable lives. Over the years,

983
01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:14.079
I have been fortunate to develop a deep relationship with

984
01:00:14.119 --> 01:00:16.960
these children, who are now close to my other children,

985
01:00:17.079 --> 01:00:20.400
their siblings. But even then, no one knew the truth,

986
01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:23.880
the full truth about how they were conceived until just

987
01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:27.119
a few weeks ago. I carried the secret for as

988
01:00:27.159 --> 01:00:29.639
long as I did because building the movement and securing

989
01:00:29.679 --> 01:00:33.039
farm worker rights was my life's work. The formation of

990
01:00:33.119 --> 01:00:35.880
a union was the only vehicle to accomplish and secure

991
01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:38.719
those rights, and I wasn't going to let Sessat or

992
01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:42.079
anyone else get in the way. I channeled everything into

993
01:00:42.119 --> 01:00:46.280
advocating on behalf of millions of farm workers and others

994
01:00:46.280 --> 01:00:49.719
who were suffering and deserved equal rights. I have never

995
01:00:49.760 --> 01:00:52.760
identified myself as a victim, but I now understand that

996
01:00:52.800 --> 01:00:56.440
I am a survivor of violence, of sexual abuse, of

997
01:00:56.519 --> 01:00:59.960
domineering men who saw me and other women as proper

998
01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:04.159
or things to control. I am telling my story because

999
01:01:04.199 --> 01:01:06.880
The New York Times has indicated that I was not

1000
01:01:06.920 --> 01:01:11.159
the only one. There were others. Women are coming forward

1001
01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:14.519
sharing that they were sexually abused and assaulted by Sasad

1002
01:01:14.559 --> 01:01:18.199
when they were girls and teenagers. The knowledge that he

1003
01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:21.440
hurt young girls sickens me. My heart aches for everyone

1004
01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:24.920
who suffered alone and in silence for years. There are

1005
01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:28.159
no words strong enough to condemn those deplorable actions that

1006
01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:31.480
he did. Says, thus actions do not reflect the values

1007
01:01:31.519 --> 01:01:35.480
of our community and our movement. The farm worker movement

1008
01:01:35.519 --> 01:01:37.880
has always been bigger and far more important than any

1009
01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:41.840
one individual. Says that's actions do not diminish the permanent

1010
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:44.679
improvement to achieve for farm workers with the help of

1011
01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:48.480
thousands of people. We must continue to engage and support

1012
01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:53.199
our community, which needs advocacy and activism now more than ever.

1013
01:01:54.239 --> 01:01:57.239
I will continue my commitments to workers, as well as

1014
01:01:57.239 --> 01:02:00.440
my commitment to women's rights, to make sure we have

1015
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:03.440
a voice and that our communities are treated with dignity

1016
01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:07.000
and given the equity that they have so long been denied.

1017
01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:11.679
I have kept the secret long enough. My silence ends here.

1018
01:02:12.599 --> 01:02:14.519
If you are a survivor, or if you have been

1019
01:02:14.559 --> 01:02:17.719
impacted by any type of flectional violence, please visit the

1020
01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:21.039
lottesport the Foundation website, where you will find a list.

1021
01:02:20.840 --> 01:02:26.800
Of resources for support. And that was her statement. I

1022
01:02:26.840 --> 01:02:28.199
need a moment to collect myself.

1023
01:02:28.920 --> 01:02:32.360
Yes, earlier, earlier, when I read her statement, it made

1024
01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:34.519
me toirit, but like it didn't make me cry, but

1025
01:02:34.519 --> 01:02:37.320
I feel like it's like triggering so much for me

1026
01:02:37.400 --> 01:02:42.880
right now, because I mean, how many women and girls

1027
01:02:42.920 --> 01:02:48.199
and children have to be abused by men and remained

1028
01:02:48.239 --> 01:02:50.840
silent for years and years and years, And how many

1029
01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:56.639
women out to endure workplace sexual harassment and violence and assault?

1030
01:02:57.719 --> 01:03:01.280
And how many women do we know personally that are

1031
01:03:01.320 --> 01:03:05.199
survivors of abuse as children or as women by men?

1032
01:03:05.280 --> 01:03:09.159
Because it's always a fucking man, and yet no man

1033
01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:13.079
ever stand up for women, you know what I mean? Right?

1034
01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:15.840
And like, although I didn't, I didn't want to talk

1035
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:19.719
about a man during women's history months, this is part

1036
01:03:19.760 --> 01:03:26.880
of it because the culture of patriarchy, this patriarchal culture, yeah,

1037
01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:32.079
has given way to all of this. It's the reason

1038
01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:34.760
he was able to get away with us for so long. Yeah,

1039
01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:38.079
And the reason why the women didn't feel like they

1040
01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:40.719
could say anything, because what is the first move to

1041
01:03:40.760 --> 01:03:43.760
blame the women themselves? And people are doing it right now,

1042
01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:49.000
Like we have like a one year old video just

1043
01:03:49.039 --> 01:03:52.519
talking about the immigration stuff, like s Se Travis and

1044
01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:56.960
I posted that today on Instagram and immediately someone mentioned,

1045
01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:58.800
like why did we that say?

1046
01:03:58.840 --> 01:03:59.880
Signing it for so long?

1047
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:03.079
She was how much does she know? And she's not

1048
01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:05.320
saying she probably knew about this and she was just

1049
01:04:05.360 --> 01:04:09.239
protecting him, and it's like she was assaulted. What are

1050
01:04:09.280 --> 01:04:12.679
you talking about. Yeah, she's like a survivor herself of this,

1051
01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:15.880
and it's always put on the women's shoulders. It's the

1052
01:04:15.920 --> 01:04:19.039
same thing people are saying about the epsin survivors, the

1053
01:04:19.119 --> 01:04:23.199
same thing they said about our killing survivors. Literally everyone,

1054
01:04:23.239 --> 01:04:25.639
it's like, oh, why didn't they say say something sooner?

1055
01:04:25.880 --> 01:04:29.280
They let other women be abused? No, our culture they

1056
01:04:29.320 --> 01:04:33.079
were scared or rape culture enables this. Yeah, because but

1057
01:04:33.280 --> 01:04:36.599
also I feel like on top of like already this

1058
01:04:37.039 --> 01:04:44.559
country's rape culture, Mexico's machismo culture, like putting those those

1059
01:04:44.559 --> 01:04:47.840
are huge factors. But then you have to keep in

1060
01:04:47.880 --> 01:04:52.800
mind the cult environment that the UfW was being ran in,

1061
01:04:52.960 --> 01:04:55.559
Like that's why we included all the context that we did.

1062
01:04:57.000 --> 01:05:02.960
They had this like unhealthy, unhealthy need to fight for

1063
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:06.559
the cause. This is something that already had in her,

1064
01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:11.000
but they took advantage of that. They took advantage of

1065
01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:13.159
that completely says their child has took advantage of that,

1066
01:05:14.599 --> 01:05:21.159
and he fostered a cult environment. Like that's like straight up,

1067
01:05:21.440 --> 01:05:25.320
so of course people were afraid, but also men are

1068
01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:29.639
going to enable men. His big supporters were men. His

1069
01:05:29.719 --> 01:05:33.119
bodyguard knew when he dropped him off or when they

1070
01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:38.800
picked up one of the survivors writing, people knew, and

1071
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:44.199
people defended him, just like it happens when you know you,

1072
01:05:44.480 --> 01:05:46.800
like a family member comes forward and then you're like

1073
01:05:47.519 --> 01:05:49.920
another family member is like, oh, so and so is

1074
01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:52.480
coming over. Don't wear any skirts?

1075
01:05:52.519 --> 01:05:54.719
Like yeah, or if.

1076
01:05:54.559 --> 01:05:56.440
She was really afraid of him, if he was really

1077
01:05:56.559 --> 01:05:59.239
hurting her, then why would she go and you know,

1078
01:05:59.320 --> 01:06:01.920
be playful with him or sitting near him or you

1079
01:06:01.960 --> 01:06:05.280
know what I mean? Like always it's always something yeah,

1080
01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:11.559
and it's just yeah, it's infreu eating. And this takes

1081
01:06:11.599 --> 01:06:18.400
into everything we've been saying about feminism and how I

1082
01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:24.519
don't know it needs to be accepted practiced.

1083
01:06:24.519 --> 01:06:27.159
Like I think it needs to be practiced. Yeah.

1084
01:06:27.239 --> 01:06:33.719
More people need to be feminists and realize that this

1085
01:06:33.800 --> 01:06:37.239
is not about one man, right, This is about a

1086
01:06:37.280 --> 01:06:42.760
culture that enables men like this to abuse women and children. Yeah,

1087
01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:54.639
and untold we see women and children as deserving of humanity, yeah, right,

1088
01:06:54.679 --> 01:06:58.320
because they're viewed as property. And that is one reason

1089
01:06:58.960 --> 01:07:04.159
why people like this find it so acceptable and easil

1090
01:07:04.400 --> 01:07:07.440
easy to abuse women and children because they're viewed as

1091
01:07:07.440 --> 01:07:12.119
property and not as full human beings like men are

1092
01:07:12.199 --> 01:07:23.360
you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly exactly and yeah,

1093
01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:28.719
oh actually no A couple more things. When these allegations

1094
01:07:28.760 --> 01:07:32.519
have were brought to light, and like obviously people flooded

1095
01:07:32.599 --> 01:07:35.079
to social media. People have been making posts like their

1096
01:07:35.119 --> 01:07:38.480
discourse has begun, right, like we sat at the top

1097
01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:41.639
of this episode or somewhere in the middle like that

1098
01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:46.119
whatever discourse that's gonna happen needs to center like the

1099
01:07:46.159 --> 01:07:49.880
survivors and their voices, which is not a lot of

1100
01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:53.880
like it's what I'm seeing is the opposite. Yeah, again

1101
01:07:54.559 --> 01:08:03.199
blaming calling this a conspiracy, saying that, oh right, when

1102
01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:09.199
farm workers are trying to fight against uh, their rights

1103
01:08:09.199 --> 01:08:12.559
being taken away, this comes out to like devalue but

1104
01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:15.559
their work or their union. But it's like sins such

1105
01:08:15.599 --> 01:08:19.479
Javis was one man. He is not the whole union. Yeah,

1106
01:08:20.399 --> 01:08:23.560
regardless of whatever Chavis has I mean, regardless of everything

1107
01:08:23.640 --> 01:08:27.279
so such Javis has done. This doesn't take away from

1108
01:08:27.479 --> 01:08:29.880
that the fact that farm workers need to be paid

1109
01:08:30.039 --> 01:08:32.479
like a again, he never did that alone, age, No,

1110
01:08:32.560 --> 01:08:33.560
he never did that alone.

1111
01:08:33.600 --> 01:08:34.479
He never did.

1112
01:08:35.760 --> 01:08:37.880
So that's like another thing I'm seeing that it's a conspiracy.

1113
01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:39.840
Other people are saying it's a conspiracy to take away

1114
01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:43.119
from the Epstein files, or like why now, why there

1115
01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:45.159
are the Times released this now They've been working on

1116
01:08:45.159 --> 01:08:49.039
this herve for years years. Yeah, and the other stuff

1117
01:08:49.079 --> 01:08:51.960
has been known, and there's there's never a wrong time

1118
01:08:52.439 --> 01:08:57.720
for survivors of sexual abuse to disclose their abuse. Yeah,

1119
01:08:58.000 --> 01:09:02.119
and the the right time is when they say it

1120
01:09:02.239 --> 01:09:07.119
like there's yeah, no other it's underbuds about it exactly exactly.

1121
01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:09.399
And so that's like another thing that I'm seeing that's

1122
01:09:09.439 --> 01:09:13.520
really off putting. Not everything revolves around the United States

1123
01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:18.920
and the Epstein files. Yeah. Plus, sorry to say it

1124
01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:23.800
just reminds me so back when I was training to

1125
01:09:23.920 --> 01:09:29.720
work at the net work to volunteer at organization that helps.

1126
01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:32.560
Now they're not so women focused, they're like more about

1127
01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:39.680
all survivors of sexual abuse and interpersonal violence. But back

1128
01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:42.399
then they were like a woman's like sheltered type place

1129
01:09:43.199 --> 01:09:47.439
and they helped survivors of rape. And so I was

1130
01:09:47.479 --> 01:09:52.319
training and one of the things I learned about is

1131
01:09:52.720 --> 01:10:01.680
the rampant sexual harassment and abuse that women migrant workers

1132
01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:06.279
in the field's face and all and this is it.

1133
01:10:06.439 --> 01:10:08.159
This is like the same thing that we're talking about now,

1134
01:10:08.239 --> 01:10:11.560
Like this has been going on forever, right back then

1135
01:10:11.600 --> 01:10:14.399
when sees their childs was doing it and the people

1136
01:10:14.479 --> 01:10:19.479
under him and every other supervisor out there know what

1137
01:10:19.479 --> 01:10:20.840
they call them, but you know what I mean, and

1138
01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:24.479
every other like man working next to their fellow peers

1139
01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:30.680
of women coworkers abusing them. And most of these women

1140
01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:33.439
were undocumented and they were afraid to report.

1141
01:10:33.800 --> 01:10:36.560
Yeah, so it's like just one more.

1142
01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:42.479
Vulnerable you know, position that they're in, that another reason

1143
01:10:42.640 --> 01:10:48.439
that they don't report, Yes, And yeah, I think that's

1144
01:10:48.840 --> 01:10:52.520
like that's a good stopping point for this episode. But yeah,

1145
01:10:52.560 --> 01:10:55.119
like not everything is a distraction for something else. We

1146
01:10:55.199 --> 01:10:57.640
can hold many truths at the same time. We can

1147
01:10:57.880 --> 01:11:02.399
hold information and uphold survive right and believe them, Yeah,

1148
01:11:02.439 --> 01:11:05.880
and believe them, and yeah, let's stop like having this

1149
01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:12.039
culture where victims and survivors of sexual abuse can't come

1150
01:11:12.079 --> 01:11:16.840
forward because the reality is that nobody believes them.

1151
01:11:17.000 --> 01:11:17.840
They are blamed.

1152
01:11:18.840 --> 01:11:21.720
And if we didn't have this culture, these women would

1153
01:11:21.760 --> 01:11:25.920
have shared their truths longer ago. Yep, Like I can't

1154
01:11:25.920 --> 01:11:30.439
even imagine being ninety six. And finally, you know, sharing

1155
01:11:30.479 --> 01:11:36.199
your truth about that, like that's wild, right right. It's infuriating,

1156
01:11:36.439 --> 01:11:38.159
it really is. And that's why I was like crying,

1157
01:11:38.199 --> 01:11:40.039
like it's here's the anger and I'm about to cry again.

1158
01:11:42.039 --> 01:11:45.239
It just takes me back, okay, like years ago, and well,

1159
01:11:45.239 --> 01:11:46.600
well let's end in and I'll tell you.

1160
01:11:47.359 --> 01:11:50.399
Okay, yeah, I don't know how to like end this.

1161
01:11:50.680 --> 01:11:54.960
Just fuck this rape culture, Fuck the patriarchy, believe survivors,

1162
01:11:55.399 --> 01:11:56.479
Thank you, yes.

1163
01:11:56.600 --> 01:11:58.359
Goodbye, goodbye.

1164
01:12:00.039 --> 01:12:03.239
Spooktaels is hosted by Christina and Carmen, produced and edited

1165
01:12:03.239 --> 01:12:06.640
by Christina, researched by Christina Carmen, and with the help

1166
01:12:06.680 --> 01:12:09.159
of Don Shout Out Don. If you aren't joining the

1167
01:12:09.159 --> 01:12:11.560
podcast considerably going to say five star review, we would

1168
01:12:11.600 --> 01:12:13.840
really appreciate it. If you don't want to the professor review,

1169
01:12:14.079 --> 01:12:16.039
just don't leave a review, but don't leave anything lower

1170
01:12:16.039 --> 01:12:18.319
than that, please, I'm just kidding. You can reach out

1171
01:12:18.319 --> 01:12:21.000
to the podcast at a spooktols at gmail dot com.

1172
01:12:21.039 --> 01:12:23.239
You can go to our website at bookitos dot com

1173
01:12:23.279 --> 01:12:25.640
and fill out the contact form. If you want to

1174
01:12:25.640 --> 01:12:28.319
support the podcast, you can join our Patreon, where we

1175
01:12:28.600 --> 01:12:32.479
send exclusive stickers, have bonus episodes. Eight dollar members get

1176
01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:35.840
an exclusive keychain. It's super cool. I got new ones

1177
01:12:35.840 --> 01:12:38.319
and these ones are huge. And if you want to

1178
01:12:38.319 --> 01:12:40.680
support but you can or don't want to join the Patreon,

1179
01:12:40.760 --> 01:12:43.720
that's fine too. You can also get some merch. You

1180
01:12:43.760 --> 01:12:47.319
can find shrew sessay, Spooky and old English letters.

1181
01:12:47.399 --> 01:12:49.159
There's a beanie. I love the beanie.

1182
01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:53.560
There's also a hat. There's a no Mamus shirt which

1183
01:12:53.640 --> 01:12:57.319
is a fan favorite. There's a lot of options, crap TOMPs, sweaters.

1184
01:12:57.359 --> 01:13:01.000
It's almost wetter weather. We're nearing a SPOOKI c so yeah,

1185
01:13:01.119 --> 01:13:03.159
get your hoodies. You're gonna need them. If you don't

1186
01:13:03.159 --> 01:13:05.119
want to do all that, that's fine too. You can

1187
01:13:05.199 --> 01:13:07.600
just listen like you're listening now, and that's the best

1188
01:13:07.640 --> 01:13:09.479
support that you can give us. Like I always say

1189
01:13:09.600 --> 01:13:12.199
in our ad break and yeah, I feel like history.

1190
01:13:12.239 --> 01:13:17.079
You can follow Estoria's Unknown Mining, Carmen's other podcasts, and

1191
01:13:17.399 --> 01:13:19.199
you can find as Spooky taels on all of our

1192
01:13:19.239 --> 01:13:22.239
socials at a Spooky Tells All. This is in the

1193
01:13:22.279 --> 01:13:26.000
show notes and we appreciate every single listen. Thank you

1194
01:13:26.119 --> 01:13:26.680
so much.

1195
01:13:26.920 --> 01:13:27.600
Stay as Spooky